I would like to listen to your sermons, but I live in the country where aircards and dial-up are the only options and I can roughly hear one sentence at a time and then a very long pause.before the next six or seven words. To make matters worse, if the phone rings or I am interrupted, I can’t move the button under the screen that’s tracking just a little bit (but I can with some other sites) because if I touch the button it reverts all the way back to the beginning!!
A manuscript would be a great help.
For the commenter above (or below, whatever the case may be), you might try purchasing an iPod and downloading the sermons via iTunes. Everything will be crisp, you can start and stop when the phone rings, and you can simply listen through the computer. Find a teenager to help. They’ll know how to set you up fast. A teen may know of someone ditching a “substandard” iPod (in other words, they bought a bigger one) and you could end up with an 8Gig nano device for about $75, like I did (about 50% less than new on the market).
From the start of the series, I was thinking the topics were going to focus on the generation missing from church (18-36 age range), the reasons why, and ways to reverse the trend. Instead, the sermons seem to be focused on simply being a welcoming church, or on how some folks are chased off in general.
I’m in my mid-40’s, and totally adrift from church, except for online attendance at COR (1000 miles is a bit far to drive each Sunday). So I am a decade beyond those thirty-somethings of today. I’d like to share my main difficulties with church, and hope some others, or you, might comment on my situation.
Why I don’t go to church locally:
1. Local churches are dominated by political conservatives, including the UMC. The dominionists, NAR, and other movements are permeating the UMC… and their activities appear as cruel, discriminating, and simply rude to many young people accustomed a flatter social structure. As a moderate in an ultraconservative region of America, I am viewed as a liberal (to them, EVERYONE is liberal who does not think as they do). When I have attended small groups at church, and they find out I teach science (uh oh, here comes the creation/evolution debate), or that I like organic produce (out comes the “eco-freako” comment), or that I am a life-long birder (from age 6, sorry… God gave me a natural love for the avian world), they brand me. Attacks are sometimes subtle, or sometimes just looks. I’m not really vocal about any of it, but I sure get scorned upon. I simply have little in common with others in small groups.
I will add that I would probably be equally dissatisfied at a liberal-dominated church. They would probably brand me a conservative with equal fervor, twisting my personal values to become the enemy. Such is the life a moderate leads in this country, especially in the Protestant sect of the Christian church.
2. Churches avoid reality: The scientific discoveries of the twentieth/twenty-first century (Hubble telescope, human genome, Burgess Shale formations, etc.) are simply not discussed at church… at all. Zip. No one has a grasp on the time issue. I see the pastors of local churches, and more so the leadership in districts and conferences in the UMC as totally paralyzed! This leaves late Gen-X with a big question mark in their minds about UMC leadership. Are they in touch? Do they only count attendance and budget figures? Do they ever sit down and think about what these discoveries mean to theology and the future of Christianity? We are waiting for the church to tie in God with these discoveries. Yet, nothing is really ever said in sermons, or in camp retreats, or workshops, or anywhere by the UMC leadership. Seminaries need to require all seeking divinity degrees to take an integrated science course to get them into the reality ball park. Pastors would then be able to intelligently communicate with the rest of the X-ers and Millenials about what they already know.
3. Money. Uh oh, I can hear any pastor now. They’ve heard this before. I’ll be brief. 10% to a twenty-something or anyone getting started in a career is NOT 10% to a person career-established. When you’re struggling to make basic payments on electricity, food, shelter, and medical, 10% is a struggle compared to a mid- to late-career or retired person who has a large cushion between their living expenses and a tithe. From my research, tithing applied to agricultural crops, not money. Pastors really need to research the tithing concept of Malachi closely as it relates to agricultural crop giving versus monetary giving. Also, I seriously doubt priests were making $100, $200, or $300,000 salaries from tithers. Stewardship campaigns, disguised in marketing cloaks of talent and service, are turn-offs for me and most others I know. On a teacher’s salary, I give what I can as household expenses rise and income is frozen indefinitely.
4. There’s no silence in worship. Silence is completely, totally missing from church is silence. The saints (those who existed before Wesley… do Protestants know there was a church between 90 AD and Luther?) would cringe if they attempted to worship in our modern services. A time to reflect, a time to pray, and most importantly… a time to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. It’s almost not even there! In a worship service, something has to constantly happen… uninterrupted stimulus. A worship service is akin to a video game. Never a down moment. I’ve looked into the possibility of starting a Taize-format of worship somewhere in my community. Our young people, and the next generation behind them, are constantly under the bombardment of entertainment and images. Adam, I do not believe you would have one young person admit it or recognize a need for it, but there IS a need for quiet worship of God in our noisy world. The church, not some field, golf course, beach, or hiking trail, is the place to connect with God on the 7th day. Our young people need a time to READ the scripture (you should see people absolutely fight reading in my classroom… they want everything PRESENTED to them… reluctant reading is not just a school issue, it’s a church issue, too). If churches do not provide a time for scripture reading and silence to listen to the voice of God in worship, God is essentially shut out and human thought and planning rules the worship time. (Maybe this is why I like to watch the birds… Since church worship is so “noisy”, I can hear the voice of God speaking to me better as I walk a path or sit on a the sand watching the sandpipers run by. Is that what Christians have to do?) Jesus has a scripturally-documented need to go out in silence to pray to the Father. Today, we simply do not foster periods of silence (beyond about 15 seconds) in our worship. The church really needs to take a look into this.
One thing I like about Roman Catholic worship is the quiet when one walks into the sanctuary. People are on kneelers, and there is a sense of reverence among many of the devout. We do not foster that at any point in Protestant worship services or on Wednesday nights. A new attendee to a church would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a public radio folk concert at an auditorium and a Christian worship service in most churches today. And, upon departing, there would be little difference in spiritual nurturing, as well.
Unfortunately, I believe the sermon series “Rethinking Church” is missing a few vital points for both the churched and unchurched.
For those in church, we need to be “rethinking” how our divisive voices and politics, our blindness and mute voices to scientific advances, our never ending selfish desire for stimulus to our own minds and bodies, and our corporate-styled marketing campaigns of giving to the church have all turned away a generation of Americans from coming any closer to the doors than the roadway while stopped at the traffic light.
For those outside the church, we need to “rethink church” in a way that challenges us to have a relationship with a creator that is far larger than our human minds can conceive, who has put into place an unimaginable and complex planet of life in an otherwise hostile universe, who has established a special order beyond simply emotionless material and energy that is instead centered around an eternal love, and to cluster with one another in that love (via the church) in order to provide support for the now and to develop means to extend eternal love to the generations to follow.
By the way, 10% is not a New Testament ‘law’. That went out with the Law of Moses, right along with circumcision. When there were 10 tribes supporting the Levites, then 10% made sense. That’s not the way it is now, and it’s not God’s plan now either. When Pastors try to insinuate that it is God’s plan, then they’re being dishonest. They’re being greedy. Or when they try to sign you up for 10% in a membership agreements, then they’re being dishonest.
You give according to what’s in your heart to give. If you’re feeling guilty about what you give, then you know you should be giving more. And if you’re giving more than what’s in your heart, then you’ll pull away. The New Covenant is a covenant of the heart, not of hard, cold rules. And Pastors know that, even when they choose the greed-motivated sermons on giving instead of telling the truth.
I give more of my money these days to charities that don’t spend 80% of what you give them on facilities and and personnel. Sorry, Church, but you’re not measuring up that way very well any more.
Can you imagine, Larry, if the Church set up chairs in large spaces, only to pull them out in the even so that they could house the homeless. Then it would make sense for a large percentage of donations to go toward facilities. But not the way that it is. It makes no sense.
It’s an affront to every rational human being out there to see such facilities and people freezing to their puke in the winter underneath a bridge.
Larry, I don’t quite understand the idea of the Church avoiding reality due to scientific discoveries. I don’t see the Bible as a scientific endevor, except for Adam catagorizing the animals. Reality goes well beyond science (naming things). I feel there is little use for science in Church aside from defending creationism or just heighting our astonishment of God. So what is the main function of the Church? Evagelism, community, charity, humanitarian needs, moralism? These things are important, but to hear the raw Gospel is rare. There are too many churches that have created an environment or expectation in which God rests inconsequentially on those who come, resulting in Gods’ truth being too distant, His grace too ordinary, His judgment too benign, His gospel too easy, and His Christ too common. Are we raising a generation of pseudo-christians?
Sorry, comments for this entry are closed at this time.
6 Comment(s)
Kathy Griffin | Oct 29, 2009 | Reply
I would like to listen to your sermons, but I live in the country where aircards and dial-up are the only options and I can roughly hear one sentence at a time and then a very long pause.before the next six or seven words. To make matters worse, if the phone rings or I am interrupted, I can’t move the button under the screen that’s tracking just a little bit (but I can with some other sites) because if I touch the button it reverts all the way back to the beginning!!
A manuscript would be a great help.
Larry McDonald | Oct 31, 2009 | Reply
For the commenter above (or below, whatever the case may be), you might try purchasing an iPod and downloading the sermons via iTunes. Everything will be crisp, you can start and stop when the phone rings, and you can simply listen through the computer. Find a teenager to help. They’ll know how to set you up fast. A teen may know of someone ditching a “substandard” iPod (in other words, they bought a bigger one) and you could end up with an 8Gig nano device for about $75, like I did (about 50% less than new on the market).
Larry McDonald | Oct 31, 2009 | Reply
Adam,
From the start of the series, I was thinking the topics were going to focus on the generation missing from church (18-36 age range), the reasons why, and ways to reverse the trend. Instead, the sermons seem to be focused on simply being a welcoming church, or on how some folks are chased off in general.
I’m in my mid-40’s, and totally adrift from church, except for online attendance at COR (1000 miles is a bit far to drive each Sunday).
So I am a decade beyond those thirty-somethings of today. I’d like to share my main difficulties with church, and hope some others, or you, might comment on my situation.
Why I don’t go to church locally:
1. Local churches are dominated by political conservatives, including the UMC. The dominionists, NAR, and other movements are permeating the UMC… and their activities appear as cruel, discriminating, and simply rude to many young people accustomed a flatter social structure. As a moderate in an ultraconservative region of America, I am viewed as a liberal (to them, EVERYONE is liberal who does not think as they do). When I have attended small groups at church, and they find out I teach science (uh oh, here comes the creation/evolution debate), or that I like organic produce (out comes the “eco-freako” comment), or that I am a life-long birder (from age 6, sorry… God gave me a natural love for the avian world), they brand me. Attacks are sometimes subtle, or sometimes just looks. I’m not really vocal about any of it, but I sure get scorned upon. I simply have little in common with others in small groups.
I will add that I would probably be equally dissatisfied at a liberal-dominated church. They would probably brand me a conservative with equal fervor, twisting my personal values to become the enemy. Such is the life a moderate leads in this country, especially in the Protestant sect of the Christian church.
2. Churches avoid reality: The scientific discoveries of the twentieth/twenty-first century (Hubble telescope, human genome, Burgess Shale formations, etc.) are simply not discussed at church… at all. Zip. No one has a grasp on the time issue. I see the pastors of local churches, and more so the leadership in districts and conferences in the UMC as totally paralyzed! This leaves late Gen-X with a big question mark in their minds about UMC leadership. Are they in touch? Do they only count attendance and budget figures? Do they ever sit down and think about what these discoveries mean to theology and the future of Christianity? We are waiting for the church to tie in God with these discoveries. Yet, nothing is really ever said in sermons, or in camp retreats, or workshops, or anywhere by the UMC leadership. Seminaries need to require all seeking divinity degrees to take an integrated science course to get them into the reality ball park. Pastors would then be able to intelligently communicate with the rest of the X-ers and Millenials about what they already know.
3. Money. Uh oh, I can hear any pastor now. They’ve heard this before. I’ll be brief. 10% to a twenty-something or anyone getting started in a career is NOT 10% to a person career-established. When you’re struggling to make basic payments on electricity, food, shelter, and medical, 10% is a struggle compared to a mid- to late-career or retired person who has a large cushion between their living expenses and a tithe. From my research, tithing applied to agricultural crops, not money. Pastors really need to research the tithing concept of Malachi closely as it relates to agricultural crop giving versus monetary giving. Also, I seriously doubt priests were making $100, $200, or $300,000 salaries from tithers. Stewardship campaigns, disguised in marketing cloaks of talent and service, are turn-offs for me and most others I know. On a teacher’s salary, I give what I can as household expenses rise and income is frozen indefinitely.
4. There’s no silence in worship. Silence is completely, totally missing from church is silence. The saints (those who existed before Wesley… do Protestants know there was a church between 90 AD and Luther?) would cringe if they attempted to worship in our modern services. A time to reflect, a time to pray, and most importantly… a time to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. It’s almost not even there! In a worship service, something has to constantly happen… uninterrupted stimulus. A worship service is akin to a video game. Never a down moment. I’ve looked into the possibility of starting a Taize-format of worship somewhere in my community. Our young people, and the next generation behind them, are constantly under the bombardment of entertainment and images. Adam, I do not believe you would have one young person admit it or recognize a need for it, but there IS a need for quiet worship of God in our noisy world. The church, not some field, golf course, beach, or hiking trail, is the place to connect with God on the 7th day. Our young people need a time to READ the scripture (you should see people absolutely fight reading in my classroom… they want everything PRESENTED to them… reluctant reading is not just a school issue, it’s a church issue, too). If churches do not provide a time for scripture reading and silence to listen to the voice of God in worship, God is essentially shut out and human thought and planning rules the worship time. (Maybe this is why I like to watch the birds… Since church worship is so “noisy”, I can hear the voice of God speaking to me better as I walk a path or sit on a the sand watching the sandpipers run by. Is that what Christians have to do?) Jesus has a scripturally-documented need to go out in silence to pray to the Father. Today, we simply do not foster periods of silence (beyond about 15 seconds) in our worship. The church really needs to take a look into this.
One thing I like about Roman Catholic worship is the quiet when one walks into the sanctuary. People are on kneelers, and there is a sense of reverence among many of the devout. We do not foster that at any point in Protestant worship services or on Wednesday nights. A new attendee to a church would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a public radio folk concert at an auditorium and a Christian worship service in most churches today. And, upon departing, there would be little difference in spiritual nurturing, as well.
Unfortunately, I believe the sermon series “Rethinking Church” is missing a few vital points for both the churched and unchurched.
For those in church, we need to be “rethinking” how our divisive voices and politics, our blindness and mute voices to scientific advances, our never ending selfish desire for stimulus to our own minds and bodies, and our corporate-styled marketing campaigns of giving to the church have all turned away a generation of Americans from coming any closer to the doors than the roadway while stopped at the traffic light.
For those outside the church, we need to “rethink church” in a way that challenges us to have a relationship with a creator that is far larger than our human minds can conceive, who has put into place an unimaginable and complex planet of life in an otherwise hostile universe, who has established a special order beyond simply emotionless material and energy that is instead centered around an eternal love, and to cluster with one another in that love (via the church) in order to provide support for the now and to develop means to extend eternal love to the generations to follow.
Larry McDonald
Fred | Nov 1, 2009 | Reply
Excellent comments, Larry.
By the way, 10% is not a New Testament ‘law’. That went out with the Law of Moses, right along with circumcision. When there were 10 tribes supporting the Levites, then 10% made sense. That’s not the way it is now, and it’s not God’s plan now either. When Pastors try to insinuate that it is God’s plan, then they’re being dishonest. They’re being greedy. Or when they try to sign you up for 10% in a membership agreements, then they’re being dishonest.
You give according to what’s in your heart to give. If you’re feeling guilty about what you give, then you know you should be giving more. And if you’re giving more than what’s in your heart, then you’ll pull away. The New Covenant is a covenant of the heart, not of hard, cold rules. And Pastors know that, even when they choose the greed-motivated sermons on giving instead of telling the truth.
I give more of my money these days to charities that don’t spend 80% of what you give them on facilities and and personnel. Sorry, Church, but you’re not measuring up that way very well any more.
Fred | Nov 1, 2009 | Reply
Can you imagine, Larry, if the Church set up chairs in large spaces, only to pull them out in the even so that they could house the homeless. Then it would make sense for a large percentage of donations to go toward facilities. But not the way that it is. It makes no sense.
It’s an affront to every rational human being out there to see such facilities and people freezing to their puke in the winter underneath a bridge.
Keith | Nov 1, 2009 | Reply
Larry, I don’t quite understand the idea of the Church avoiding reality due to scientific discoveries. I don’t see the Bible as a scientific endevor, except for Adam catagorizing the animals. Reality goes well beyond science (naming things). I feel there is little use for science in Church aside from defending creationism or just heighting our astonishment of God. So what is the main function of the Church? Evagelism, community, charity, humanitarian needs, moralism? These things are important, but to hear the raw Gospel is rare. There are too many churches that have created an environment or expectation in which God rests inconsequentially on those who come, resulting in Gods’ truth being too distant, His grace too ordinary, His judgment too benign, His gospel too easy, and His Christ too common. Are we raising a generation of pseudo-christians?