Kudos to Adam for continuing this discussion.

It is correct to characterize some pro-lifers’ approach to abortion as ineffective (not to mention offensive in some cases); however, Adam’s repeated assertion that the approach of “many” pro-lifers has been ineffective is inaccurate and unfair.

Many pro-lifers go to great lengths to hate the sin but lover the sinner. We are the silent majority in the pro-life movement. You don’t see us on TV. We aren’t appreciated (or even acknowledged) for our efforts in your sermons for fear of offending those who are pro-choice Adam. And yet, we ARE effective at reducing abortions. According to statistics from the CDC’s website, abortions as a percentage of all pregnancies reached an all time high of 30.1% in 1981. Since then, the percentage of pregnancies ending in abortion has steadily DECREASED to 22.6% in 2005 (the latest year data is available). Admittedly, there is much more to be done, but it is misleading to suggest that the pro-life movement has been ineffective.

It is noble to suggest ways to reduce abortions. Advocating situational (rather than absolute) morals and compromising the sanctity of life in order to appeal to the masses is not. What of William Wilberforce?

I am quick to disagree with “most” ethicists who affirm the rights of the mother over the unborn. Is it not possible that this is a gray area, that the life of the mother is equal in value to the unborn’s? Shouldn’t we base our morals on scripture rather than secular ethics? While scriptures do not directly condemn abortion, the sanctity and value of unborn life seem quite clear. May I ask which scriptures you suggest for guidance about abortion?

I get a kick out the semantics surrounding the notion that late term abortions are wrong but early term abortions are OK. Hmmm, let’s see…how shall we define late term? What month, week, day, hour, and second does “late term” start? How do you define the magic moment that signifies “late term”? It’s not possible to answer that one without being arbitrary and completely illogical. Guess that is a gray one, huh? I, for one, am willing to take a stand and say - in black and white - an abortion is an abortion is an abortion. If, in fact, most pro-choice advocates are against late term abortions, they are - by definition - against abortion, right? Gee, there is common ground!

Finally, I take exception to the idea that black and white positions result in “more young people rejecting the church”. Studies have repeatedly shown that young people who are seekers are desperate for leaders who demonstrate moral clarity on tough issues. They crave guidance and direction based on scriptural principles. Young people who reject the church do so as a result of being indoctrinated into a culture that says “There is no higher authority, no right and wrong. How you feel is most important”. It is normal for young people to question their leaders and their faith - who among us has not chaffed under His yoke at some point? Allowing God’s grace to work upon young people’s hearts seems like a good solution. Removing all the black and white so everyone can feel good does not.

I agree! Let’s do! As a woman I think I can bring some new light to this subject (not sure.)

I think some teen pregnancies are emotionally driven… a need for “someone to love me” or a need to “feel grown up.” Again I do not have scientific evidence on this. Also to “cement the relationship.” I am very sorry and I know it’s not popular to say so but I have heard young girls say exactly that. I truly think the young girls think the guy is going to stick around. If we could open their heads and pour in the facts about how many of the young guys stick around, that might help. More livable wage jobs for the young fathers who do stick around would also help. I think a certain percentage of these emotionally-driven first babies would be hard to prevent. Of course, we are not talking about abortion here because the girl does not want to abort this baby who was wanted (at least by the mother.) In these cases maybe the girl’s parents push her to an abortion. To prevent an abortion in a case like that it’s the girl’s parents who need the lesson — on hypocrisy! I have heard an atheist rant and rave about when a fundamentalist family’s daughter got pregnant by an African-American guy, they “couldn’t get her to an abortionist fast enough.” I wonder how much of this goes on. Planned Parenthood says plenty of their abortions are performed on women who don’t believe in abortion but “just this once.”

Another huge factor (from what I hear, again no scientific evidence) is older men with teen girls. I wish I did have statistics on how often it’s the same-age boyfriend vs. an older guy who’s the father. I think older men sometimes seek out teen girls precisely because the younger girls are less worldly-wise and less able to say “Wait a minute, I’m not endangering my future, if you cared about me you wouldn’t pressure me to.” Younger girls are more apt to buy the “Your mother doesn’t want you to date me (older guy) because she’s jealous, blah blah”

Another factor is the age-old idea that if a girl or woman has birth control at the ready, she is not a “nice girl” because she “planned” to have sex. In order to maintain the image of innocence the girl must be “swept off her feet” not planning and not forearmed with birth control. I think there’s still a double standard or cultural imperative that a young woman act like she does not plan to have sex, and just got swept away or oops that margarita was stronger than expected.

Hence the role of alcohol! I really thing a lot of the hookup culture and binge drinking is in part because people want to pretend they “just got swept away in the moment” not “calculated” so they have plausible deniability in the form of alcohol. They can say “I was drunk it doesn’t count.” I do not know what goes on in the guys’ heads except I suspect the guys think if the girl had X amount of alcohol she knew what she was doing and is fair game. My male boss says no, the guys are just using the opportunity. I think the girls get drunk so they can kind of have an “out” because there is so much judgment even though we live in a culture that pretends to try not to judge. Now we are judged if we are seen as having “planned” by being forearmed with birth control but if we were “accidentally” drunk and “things just happened” it’s like it didn’t count.

Another factor is that as good as many birth control methods are, they are far from foolproof. Teen pregnancies went way down once Depo shots came along. The Pill is not foolproof, but the ways it can fail are in the fine print. The fine print is not explained when it is prescribed. If you take an antibiotic you can render the pill ineffective for the entire *month* and people don’t know that. If you take a pill at the wrong time of day and it’s the wrong day you can ovulate for that month. If you have diarrhea or throw up, you may not make the connection but you just lost your undissolved pill. Nevertheless, I think a lot of young women are not on the Pill or any birth control because that would seem “calculating” both to them and they think it would to the guy. Not sure. Not sure what percentage of young women who aren’t in a relationship and just dating around, are on the pill or any birth control but the percentage of married women who get pregnant on the pill is not zero, either. If the fine print about the ways the pill can fail were more known, this might prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Another factor that I *never* hear talked about is the way dating has changed in the last 20 years. Instead of waiting to establish exclusivity and probably talk about birth control, couples are “expected” to have sex on the third date. I do not hear anyone combatting this idea but Mark Driscoll and his ilk. I do not like his theology but I will give him that–he addresses this issue head-on. However, I am not sure what this has to do with abortion because these people are probably out of college and probably ambitious and old enough to plan and use birth control without worrying if they look like they “planned” it or had to pretend “it just happened.” Again, no statistics, just trends out there in the culture that I never hear anyone but the full quiver set combat. Talk about gray and extremes–how bad is it when the only people who will question the “three date rule” are the Gothardites? How are our young women of today supposed to go against this expectation? It’s not just pressure from the guy–nowadays it’s pressure on whether you’re up to date, properly ambitious, smart, and whether you’re being a holdout because you’re all needy and clingy etc. I’d hate to be young and dating today!

When I was a teen my mother showed me birth control and how to use it and I didn’t take it as permission to have sex. I knew what my mother meant though. “If you’re going to do it pleaaaase don’t get pregnant.” I could figure that out! People today seem to think people will take that as permission. I certainly didn’t. Is it better today that people use alcohol and “swept away” as permission?

Just some thoughts. I think this kind of thing needs to be talked about. Ideally we should not have premarital sex but if we’re going to we should be honest enough moral agents that we know we’re going to and get birth control and not think it’s better to play “swept away!” oops pregnant! than to plan ahead, admit a weakness might happen, and know where the birth control is….just some thoughts.

As you said, we obviously have some fundamental differences in our understanding of scriptures, perhaps even in the way that scriptures are meant to be interpreted. However, as far as I can tell, we agree as to the nature of Christ, and, as for other things, I offer only my opinion. I am well aware that my understanding is and always will be flawed by being mortal and imperfect. I alluded to this in my closing salutation, i.e. 1 Corinthians 13. I will repeat it more fully so that you understand that I am well aware of the limits of my understanding in this life:

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known (1 Corinthians 13:12).

As for sin, I am well aware of my shortcomings. To say otherwise would be adding a lie to my list of sins. And I also hate my sins, and if I couldn’t turn to Christ for mercy I would hate my life as well. Also, admittedly, I am very careful in judging others, because, as I am sure you know, Christ makes us ask ourselves over and over in different ways: If we do not forgive other, why should we expect forgiveness from him?

God Bless you CC, and thank you for cautioning me in a Christ-like manner.

All the best to you and your’s,

I agree with you that there is no grayness in what constitutes life. The gray is in how people understand it. I will not use the label pro-choice or pro-life on myself, because people have so stereotyped those labels that they are as useless as cartoon caricatures. Also, these two have been lumped in with victimless “crimes or sins.” I will not state in detail what I feel these are. I don’t need to. We all have the ability to examine for ourselves which sins have a further reaching impact on other humans than the immediate sin and, also, which sins may glorify people to the point that the place of God is diminished. I will choose another controversial “sin” to illustrate:

Homosexuality, while I may feel it is a sin, I will leave to God to decide, because here on earth it is hard to believe that homosexuals have as much impact on a society of sinners (all of us) than greed, covetousness, backbiting, bearing false witness (not a simple lie, but true false witness, i.e. meant to bring harm to another with a lie), slander, even adultery, etc., etc,. All of these sins can have butterfly effects that slowly erode away at man’s humanity to man. These very common sins can, given time, bring down a society or corrupt it to the point where it is unlivable. Homosexuality, to me, is not one of these “greater sins,” because the impact is on the individual involved, not society. When homosexuals begin banging on our doors for us to bring out our guests so that they can “know” them, I’ll have to admit I was wrong about this. (Sorry. I was raised on too much Mark Twain – it’s a joke.)

Also, as yet, homosexuals, for the most part (see above), have not come banging door to door demanding that we deny Christ. (Is Richard Dawkins gay?) Anyway, most seem happy to let us worship as we want, as long as we don’t make their lives unbearable for them. In fact, probably many more would seek Christ if they were not made to feel that their sins were any more outrageous than “regular Joe or Jane?” who cuss and nag occasionally, and probably much worse.

By the way I’m not gay, but I am not pure in all my thoughts. So assuming that gays commit the sins we all do, I am an equal sinner.

Why I used this example is that homosexuality and abortion are often presented as if they were in some way tied together. They’re not. And I cannot, with conscience, make dry jokes about abortion. It is a serious issue. The question as to whether abortion is right or wrong comes down to the question that everything we believe rests on: What is human life? Are we just a bundle of cells? Or are we a bundle of cells that somehow has a meaning, a purpose, a God that created us for that purpose, a God that does not “play dice with the universe (Einstein-paraphrased)?”

It is not just a Christian-Islamic-Judaic question. It is question of all religions. In fact “Eastern” religions are often more aggressive in protecting the sanctity of life than “Western.” Certain animals, sometimes all animals are considered sacred. Sometimes plants are included. Some people in India wear veils, not to hide their face, but so they do not inadvertently breathe in an insect and thus add a death to their conscience.

Now, I could become completely philosophical about life and reduce it to an equation, or several competing equations, but my point should already be clear: The question of what constitutes life will not go away. Furthermore, no scientist in the world can tell us if human life is sacred, let alone when it becomes sacred. In fact, to me it is not a question of “is a fetus sacred?” but “Is humanity reduced more greatly by the death of a fetus than by the death of someone already entangled in all the questions that make life meaningful.”

I can’t answer this, and it is my belief that no one can. To consider what I mean by this I will take an example that few Americans have to face:

There is a mother with two children living on an income of $140.00 a year. Her two living children are barely surviving. Would it be a greater sin to bring another child into the world and have three children on the edge of death, or sacrifice the love she has for the unborn child to keep her two “living” children alive.

This is a question that millions of mothers around the world face every day. Sometimes they are even forced to decide which of their “living” children will live. The mother has no good or right option; she is forced to decide which “wrong” is more right. American mothers also face the same questions, though their reasons for doing “the right thing” may be different. As for what these mothers should do, I will leave the question to all the mothers (and fathers) in the world. I am sure there would be great disagreement, but anyone with any humanity has to feel deeply for the person who, like Job, is stuck in a quandary as to why God would ever put such a curse on them. Yes, Protestants can use birth control. Not all Catholics agree that this even is a solution. Regardless, we are terribly imperfect beings and we make terrible mistakes, and, like David when Nathan confronted him, suddenly realize the enormity of what we have done.

And sometimes we are simply caught up in the horrible circumstances of life, things we could not have foretold – like many mothers in the Depression Era who might prostitute themselves to feed their children, only to have more unplanned children, and might then leave their babies on doorsteps, or give their beloved children to other people in hope that they would have a better life.

Anyway, I think I’ve made my point. There is not always a right answer. For many, like Sandy, the answer is complete submission to circumstance and undying faith that God is with her. It seems like a good answer. Others have trouble believing that God would allow these things and make decisions knowing that they will never be sure whether they were right or not, but go on knowing God will not condemn them (as he didn’t condemn Job) for heavyhearted decisions where there seemed to be no right answer. For those who think the decision is always black and white, that in all circumstances parties are equally guilty and deserving of judgment - I think these people have not faced enough suffering – but again I may be underestimating the complexities of being human.

As to my political stance I think I am pragmatic, though some may call me radical. I believe the question of whether abortion is right or wrong can never be solved in an earthly court. I believe that whether we prohibit all abortions, prohibit those of convenience, or allow each and every one, the question will still remain one that each individual faces. Our system of government is full of gaps and far from perfect, but, unless we want anarchy, it is still a good system for keeping people with hugely diverse views from filling the streets with blood. When I vote I vote for an imperfect man or woman, and I expect what I voted for. Anyone who believes in a Theocracy only needs to look at how the Davidic Kingdom failed almost as quickly as David left the throne. There is a legitimate question as to whether David was even the king that he was expected by God to be.

Christians have one king and that is Christ. Christ, our king, did not try to overthrow the Roman Government. He did in the end, I suppose, but only long after he had been martyred. Long after, many good people were put to death in His Name. And then people were even put to death by Christ’s name – How much worse a betrayal than those who simply mocked Him.

Democracy is better, maybe, but far from perfect. We still have to appeal to God on the important things. There are so many questions mankind is incapable of making. God is with or in each and every one of us (whatever faith or non-faith), and we can appeal to that part of ourselves and others that is greater than we can ever be.

“Do to others what you would have them do to you, for this is the some of the law and the prophets.”

To me, 1,000,000 abortions a year says something about how much we value life, even our own lives, and this is a sad thing. People need God - not forced down their throats, but recognized in their own being. Christians and non-Christians alike in this country are far from treating one another justly. Repeated injustices break the spirit of people, and when the spirit is broken God seems less likely. Every person that is driven away when we Christians step up onto God’s throne diminishes God. I am “pro-life.” How could anyone be anything else? But first we must help other’s know that our God is their God, and he is patiently waiting on all of us. When people recognize the Spirit of God in themselves, they will better know right from wrong, and how to right wrongs, and eventually even to accept that all is not perfect.

But God can, did, and somehow does reside with us, even in this frightening chaos unparalleled in the history of man. Knowing this, we can rise above apathy and …let “thy Kingdom come, on earth as it is in Heaven.” Earth may never be close to perfect, but that is our calling.
But we can’t piece together God’s kingdom – a window and fireplace, saving the foundation for later. We have to build the foundation so that it is solid and worthy enough to support the Kingdom. The doors and windows will fall into place.

I am not preaching, for I know I am not worthy of asking anything of anyone. If you meant me, you’d agree:-) I have no time for judging others; I need it all to work on myself. Nevertheless, I believe all this. If I did not, I’m not sure life would be worth living.

But it is! Alleluia!

Your hope is my hope.
Pray for me, and I’ll pray for you
to survive this imperfect world
with imperfect understanding
until I know and you know
even as we are fully known…

Alleluia!

I submit to you that the grey comes from our own uncomfortableness, our own inability to see Christ in circumstances that cause unimaginable pain, our sin in missing the mark of finding the infinite providence that God provides to “have ALL things work for the good.”

I concur that the pro-life stance of ramming black and white down the throats of any opposition/woman with an unwanted pregnancy and then walking away is not effective. You cannot take away an individual’s coping skill without assisting them in replacing it with a new one. There are organizations who have found the “grey” in how Christians should approach those considering termination of life at any stage. These Crisis Pregnancy Centers, specifically those under the guidance of Focus on the Family, are reaching out to those who are considering doing the one thing that the volunteers and staff members would work tirelessly to prevent. That is showing the love of Christ! These women who come in for help are loved, not judged, educated, not given the easy way out, and shown life (via ultrasound), not death. I am a child born on the very day that Roe vs. Wade was settled in the courts. I am blessed to be the child of a woman who has spent 15 years volunteering in a Crisis Pregnancy Center. I know that each and every life that is saved, each and every woman that is spared the lifelong pain of abortion is celebrated and cherished.

I believe that God calls us to be steadfast in our beliefs, but compassionate and loving in their presentation. I submit that the “grey” can be found NOT in altering what is right simply to achieve “more right”, but by each Christian loving, caring for, and educating others. If each Pro-life individual presented their beliefs in this manner, in a Christ-like manner, THAT would make a difference.

However, I know that Adam constantly seeks the prodigals – like me. When I was an atheist someone telling me I needed faith was like telling me I needed a genie in a lamp. It was Adam’s appeal to my intellect that kept me coming back every week. He got me to question my own arrogance, got me to read the Bible again without my former prejudice. Eventually God (through people at COR) filled a broken window in my soul with light. It changed me completely.

From that point on I wanted what Sandy (those like her) had – a faith and love “that always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.” It is still what I want.

Nevertheless, it was an appeal to my reason that made me consider faith. I think this is true for many of the 1000’s of others who now go to Church of the Resurrection.Therefore, I thank God for the Adams for reaching out to us prodigals. And I thank God for the Sandys who show us how much our faith can do and become.

As far as the issue at hand, there is gray and more shades of gray. I don’t know the answer and won’t pretend to. I just believe that these decisions should be made with a great deal of prayer, followed through with a great deal of faith. If one’s decision leaves one with regret, Christ will still be there for the person, and every congregation should be as well.

Regarding the original question of abortion, thanks Canopus for your correction. In trying to obscure the details a bit so as not to violate confidentiality I was not careful in my use of the terms. You are quite correct about the difference between RU486 and the morning after pill.

I would reiterate several points from the chapter in my book - first, in the field of ethics there are often situations where two moral “rights” come in conflict with one another. This is the case when the life of a mother is endangered by carrying a pregnancy to term. In those cases most ethicists affirm that the rights of the mother come before the rights of the unborn. It is true this is a small fraction of abortions. In the case of teens becoming pregnant, I share my own story as an example of why teens and their parents should carry the child to term.

I stand by my contention in the book, which is the primary premise of the chapter, that the current approach many pro-life people take on this issue has been largely ineffective at reducing the number of abortions.

The current approach to this issue leaves the issue at a stalemate, and one million abortions occurring in the United States annually. I, for one, am willing to work with and look for common ground in order to reduce that number.

Regarding the idea that the longer a pregnancy progresses the more morally problematic abortion becomes: My point is that this appears to be a place where pro-life and pro-choice may find common ground - a large number of pro-choice advocates do not support late term abortion. So, let’s find ways to reach common ground here. I understand that many pro-life advocates will not see any difference in preventing a fertilized egg from implanting (by means of the morning after pill) and in aborting a fetus that is in the eighth month of development. I do see a difference here.

I would encourage you who are uncomfortable with the idea of the need for gray to read my book - I think what I’m advocating might make more sense. After the 1960’s where everything seemed gray the pendulum swung to a place where folks were advocating black and white in everything. The pendulum swung too far to the right. The result is a polarized society and more young people who have rejected Christianity. My book is aimed at encouraging us to recognize that there is gray and not everything is black and white.

This is an important discussion, thank you for participating in it. Adam

The majority of abortions are performed on young women who get pregnant and are confused and afraid. These abortions are performed on what would have been healthy babies. We, as the body of Christ, need to be addressing the root problem of why a woman places herself in this compromising position in the first place. I was elated to hear that my son heard biblical teaching at Youth Group from Jason Gant. “Pre-marital sex is a sin” It’s about time that someone risks being “politically correct”, preaches the truth from God’s Word and gives our children some tools to help them fight against the Enemy. I am upset that our Senior Pastor has not done the same thing.

I was a teenager who “went to church” but ended up pregnant. Trust me, my first thought was abortion but praise God, I sought His direction and because of my decision there is a family out there who has a beautiful baby boy. Do you want to talk about my psycholigical state during that pregnancy when I was alone, afraid, confused, isolated from my family? Let’s discuss how often I think of this child that I gave up. Those are consequences that I live with every day but God has used each and every tear that has fallen to grow me into a compassionate and loving person who knows that the consequences of abortion far outweigh my personal pain.