Comments on: Qualities of an Effective Bishop http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/ Faith, Morality, and Politics in a Black and White World Sat, 06 Sep 2008 01:00:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: denni http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-275 denni Thu, 20 Mar 2008 04:18:28 +0000 http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-275 Interesting comments. I like your requirements for a bishop. I’d also like to add the requirement of having served in a local church for a minimum number of years, and perhaps even a minimum number of churches. I’m not sure what that minimum should be, but currently we have several bishops with very little experience in the local church. One in particular has only 3 extremely small churches on his resume before soaring to the top. We have a few bishops who demonstrated outstanding administrative skills early in their ministry. That, coupled with being in the right place at the right time sent them straight up the ladder with great speed. The absence of experience and real knowledge of what its like to be a pastor in a local church is evident in them and I think it hurts the conferences they serve. I’d like our bishops to have courage and a prophetic voice when necessary. Many of them, especially in the south, seem to be intimidated by forces outside the church – our so called “renewal” groups. Their true motives are not what they would have us believe. Let’s be honest. I’d like our bishops to stop focusing on numbers. Its not that I’m opposed to church growth. That would contradict the gospel message. I fully support making disciples of Christ. But only if the true goal is to make those disciples of Christ for the transformation of the world, NOT to increase the number of rear-ends in the pews and money in the offering plate. I’m a firm believer that church growth is the natural by-product of doing the right thing. Perhaps we should figure out what the right thing is and simple do that. I’m certain that our declining numbers would correct themselves. And, since I’m here I might as well share my thoughts on what I think we are doing wrong. Survey after survey indicates that the number one reason folks have left the UMC and other mainline protestant denominations is biblical literalism. They just can’t take it anymore. And why should they? It doesn't work and it is not United Methodism. A few posts ago Lonestar quoted Imagine saying: “consider people and what they want” and then followed by asking us to look at what that “has done to the Episcopal church - those people and their modern interpretation of the Bible has practically caused the disintegration of that church.” First of all, the fall of the Episcopal church is propaganda (again by the very renewal groups who orchestrated the internal struggles to begin with) The Episcopal Church has lost less than 5% of its membership since Rev. Robinson became a bishop and they are already gaining that back. But more important than that is the thought that their interpretation of the Bible is “modern”. It is not. And our beloved United Methodist Church is suffering from that tug of war as well. A literal interpretation of holy scripture is the modern view. A literal interpretation of holy scripture is the “Johnny come lately,” not the other way around. A literal interpretation is less than 200 years old. In the big scheme of things, that is a newborn baby. Some say this movement really took flight in the 1920’s. That means that my great-grandmother would have thought a literal interpretation of the Bible to be utterly foolish. When one says we must “get back to our roots” that means getting back to a metaphorical interpretation of holy scripture - the way the original authors intended it to be understood (had they ever dreamed it would someday be read). Our founder was an Oxford Scholar for goodness sake. He instilled in us a value of higher learning, continuing education and biblical scholarship. He brought to us the Quadrilateral as an essential tool for theological reflection. I am a United Methodist because I’m not expected to check my brain in the Narthex . . . or at least that didn’t used to be a requirement. I agree that we need to get back to our roots. We need our pastors to share their seminary education. We insist that they have no less than a masters degree from a select group of approved seminaries yet we want them to preach and teach as if they’ve never gone to school. We need them to trust the laity and get up there and teach us what they know to be true. AND, the laity need to expect to be challenged and be willing to grow. Instead, we take their heads off if they say something that doesn’t line up with our 1st grade Sunday school lesson, or something that grandma taught us. So, for the sake of “Unity” in our churches (which I believe is now being used as a wedge issue), many of our pastors stop sharing what they know to be true. They allow us to stay married to the faith of our childhood regardless of how limiting and un-Christ like that can be. Don’t get me wrong. I love unity and I’ve been known to jump through hoops to achieve or preserve it. But I could never sacrifice a deeper truth or a more meaningful faith for the sake of unity. As a denomination, I think we have made that sacrifice and I think our bishops are the only ones who can get us back on track. In the year that we are celebrating the 100th anniversary of the Social Creed, I want bishops who value the creed and the Social Principles. I want bishops who will lead the way to loving and caring for ALL of God’s creation. Sometimes that means going into the temple, turning over the tables and throwing a fit over the way the systems are set up and functioning. I believe if bishops have the courage to do that, then God will bless that with a kind of Unity we can’t even imagine. Sorry so long. Thanks for listening. Interesting comments. I like your requirements for a bishop. I’d also like to add the requirement of having served in a local church for a minimum number of years, and perhaps even a minimum number of churches. I’m not sure what that minimum should be, but currently we have several bishops with very little experience in the local church. One in particular has only 3 extremely small churches on his resume before soaring to the top. We have a few bishops who demonstrated outstanding administrative skills early in their ministry. That, coupled with being in the right place at the right time sent them straight up the ladder with great speed. The absence of experience and real knowledge of what its like to be a pastor in a local church is evident in them and I think it hurts the conferences they serve.

I’d like our bishops to have courage and a prophetic voice when necessary. Many of them, especially in the south, seem to be intimidated by forces outside the church – our so called “renewal” groups. Their true motives are not what they would have us believe. Let’s be honest.

I’d like our bishops to stop focusing on numbers. Its not that I’m opposed to church growth. That would contradict the gospel message. I fully support making disciples of Christ. But only if the true goal is to make those disciples of Christ for the transformation of the world, NOT to increase the number of rear-ends in the pews and money in the offering plate. I’m a firm believer that church growth is the natural by-product of doing the right thing. Perhaps we should figure out what the right thing is and simple do that. I’m certain that our declining numbers would correct themselves.

And, since I’m here I might as well share my thoughts on what I think we are doing wrong. Survey after survey indicates that the number one reason folks have left the UMC and other mainline protestant denominations is biblical literalism. They just can’t take it anymore. And why should they? It doesn’t work and it is not United Methodism.

A few posts ago Lonestar quoted Imagine saying: “consider people and what they want” and then followed by asking us to look at what that “has done to the Episcopal church - those people and their modern interpretation of the Bible has practically caused the disintegration of that church.”

First of all, the fall of the Episcopal church is propaganda (again by the very renewal groups who orchestrated the internal struggles to begin with) The Episcopal Church has lost less than 5% of its membership since Rev. Robinson became a bishop and they are already gaining that back. But more important than that is the thought that their interpretation of the Bible is “modern”. It is not. And our beloved United Methodist Church is suffering from that tug of war as well. A literal interpretation of holy scripture is the modern view. A literal interpretation of holy scripture is the “Johnny come lately,” not the other way around. A literal interpretation is less than 200 years old. In the big scheme of things, that is a newborn baby. Some say this movement really took flight in the 1920’s. That means that my great-grandmother would have thought a literal interpretation of the Bible to be utterly foolish. When one says we must “get back to our roots” that means getting back to a metaphorical interpretation of holy scripture - the way the original authors intended it to be understood (had they ever dreamed it would someday be read). Our founder was an Oxford Scholar for goodness sake. He instilled in us a value of higher learning, continuing education and biblical scholarship. He brought to us the Quadrilateral as an essential tool for theological reflection. I am a United Methodist because I’m not expected to check my brain in the Narthex . . . or at least that didn’t used to be a requirement.

I agree that we need to get back to our roots. We need our pastors to share their seminary education. We insist that they have no less than a masters degree from a select group of approved seminaries yet we want them to preach and teach as if they’ve never gone to school. We need them to trust the laity and get up there and teach us what they know to be true. AND, the laity need to expect to be challenged and be willing to grow. Instead, we take their heads off if they say something that doesn’t line up with our 1st grade Sunday school lesson, or something that grandma taught us.

So, for the sake of “Unity” in our churches (which I believe is now being used as a wedge issue), many of our pastors stop sharing what they know to be true. They allow us to stay married to the faith of our childhood regardless of how limiting and un-Christ like that can be.

Don’t get me wrong. I love unity and I’ve been known to jump through hoops to achieve or preserve it. But I could never sacrifice a deeper truth or a more meaningful faith for the sake of unity. As a denomination, I think we have made that sacrifice and I think our bishops are the only ones who can get us back on track.

In the year that we are celebrating the 100th anniversary of the Social Creed, I want bishops who value the creed and the Social Principles. I want bishops who will lead the way to loving and caring for ALL of God’s creation. Sometimes that means going into the temple, turning over the tables and throwing a fit over the way the systems are set up and functioning. I believe if bishops have the courage to do that, then God will bless that with a kind of Unity we can’t even imagine.

Sorry so long. Thanks for listening.

]]> By: sizz http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-274 sizz Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:54:29 +0000 http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-274 Oldtime, I think you are on to something here. The church does need to look back to see the amazing things that were done in the early days of the church. Most main line pastors have completely lost their evangelical entrepreneurialism that the early church was founded on. Lets look back at what the Wesley brothers were able to accomplish and how they did it! These guys were the master marketers of their day. They went town to town and door to door, preaching the gospel message and started home based groups wherever they went. These small groups flourished and became churches in each of these towns. Later, in the U.S. the early circuit riders for the UMC were absolute entrepreneurs with a heart for God and passion to take the message and spread it across America. In each case they had the right product, at the right time, in the right place. As for the Wesley’s, John was the ultimate evangelist and speaker and brother Charles had the gift of music so that those who could not read could memorize scripture as they sang a catchy tune. Can you imagine the back lash they must have taken for putting the Holy Bible to music? I bet there were people of that day that were completely flabbergasted to hear Holy Scriptures put to music. John and Charles were a marketing one – two punch. John on the Word and Charles with the Jingles…. Fast forward to today – we have to be able to reach people where they are now. We are highly educated, hard charging, type A’s – we need the truth, the gospel message, but we want it fast and it needs to be relevant to us today or we won’t listen. If the Wesley brothers were alive today to carry out their mission – how do you think they would do it? I believe they felt called to reach the people where they were, however they could. They didn’t follow rules, they didn’t make people come to them, they went to the people and spread the word. We need BOLD Bishops who are not afraid to think entrepreneurially and who are not afraid to break all the rules. We need such things today as “sound bites” and topical relevant preaching to reach those who will only hear the message in this way. We must go to where the people are to reach them – and once we have their attention, then they will be open to hear the Gospel message and what the scriptures have to teach us. Thank God for the example the Wesley’s gave us for how to grow the church again. Oldtime,

I think you are on to something here. The church does need to look back to see the amazing things that were done in the early days of the church. Most main line pastors have completely lost their evangelical entrepreneurialism that the early church was founded on. Lets look back at what the Wesley brothers were able to accomplish and how they did it! These guys were the master marketers of their day. They went town to town and door to door, preaching the gospel message and started home based groups wherever they went. These small groups flourished and became churches in each of these towns. Later, in the U.S. the early circuit riders for the UMC were absolute entrepreneurs with a heart for God and passion to take the message and spread it across America. In each case they had the right product, at the right time, in the right place. As for the Wesley’s, John was the ultimate evangelist and speaker and brother Charles had the gift of music so that those who could not read could memorize scripture as they sang a catchy tune. Can you imagine the back lash they must have taken for putting the Holy Bible to music? I bet there were people of that day that were completely flabbergasted to hear Holy Scriptures put to music. John and Charles were a marketing one – two punch. John on the Word and Charles with the Jingles….
Fast forward to today – we have to be able to reach people where they are now. We are highly educated, hard charging, type A’s – we need the truth, the gospel message, but we want it fast and it needs to be relevant to us today or we won’t listen. If the Wesley brothers were alive today to carry out their mission – how do you think they would do it? I believe they felt called to reach the people where they were, however they could. They didn’t follow rules, they didn’t make people come to them, they went to the people and spread the word. We need BOLD Bishops who are not afraid to think entrepreneurially and who are not afraid to break all the rules. We need such things today as “sound bites” and topical relevant preaching to reach those who will only hear the message in this way. We must go to where the people are to reach them – and once we have their attention, then they will be open to hear the Gospel message and what the scriptures have to teach us. Thank God for the example the Wesley’s gave us for how to grow the church again.

]]> By: lonestar http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-273 lonestar Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:00:00 +0000 http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-273 imagine: take a look at what you say about "consider people and what they want" has done to the Episcopal church - those people and their modern interpretation of the Bible has practically caused the disintegration of that church. So are you saying a new bishop needs to perfect walking on eggshells so as not to offend, always keeping in mind not hurting any feelings lest they leave the church? Finding a bishop who does walk the walk is paramount, otherwise why should the Bible be taught? By the way, who said the hypocrisy that young people see in leaders of the church is valid, or is it one of these "you do it my way or I'll go elsewhere?" imagine: take a look at what you say about “consider people and what they want” has done to the Episcopal church - those people and their modern interpretation of the Bible has practically caused the disintegration of that church.
So are you saying a new bishop needs to perfect walking on eggshells so as not to offend, always keeping in mind not hurting any feelings lest they leave the church? Finding a bishop who does walk the walk is paramount, otherwise why should the Bible be taught? By the way, who said the hypocrisy that young people see in leaders of the church is valid, or is it one of these “you do it my way or I’ll go elsewhere?”

]]> By: imagine http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-272 imagine Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:09:54 +0000 http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-272 Reading other comments, I do hope that the church can appoint a bishop who puts God first, but I also think that to prevent the church from further diminishing, you do have to consider people and what they want. I have attended the United Methodist Church pretty much ever since I was born and have seen the decline in attendance. I think it is due to the disillusionment with religion in general and the hypocrisy that young people see in the leaders of churches. So, I think that finding a bishop who "walks the talk" is also important. I think that Adam is right in finding a bishop who can see the gray in things and can at least present things in an accepting way. The fact that people are so judgmental of others is a hard path to navigate for anyone, but if the bishop could navigate in way that helps everyone to feel accepted and loved by Christ and God, then he/she will be a powerful presence and one who can "roll with the punches" of change as they come and as times necessitate a church leader to do. Reading other comments, I do hope that the church can appoint a bishop who puts God first, but I also think that to prevent the church from further diminishing, you do have to consider people and what they want. I have attended the United Methodist Church pretty much ever since I was born and have seen the decline in attendance. I think it is due to the disillusionment with religion in general and the hypocrisy that young people see in the leaders of churches. So, I think that finding a bishop who “walks the talk” is also important. I think that Adam is right in finding a bishop who can see the gray in things and can at least present things in an accepting way. The fact that people are so judgmental of others is a hard path to navigate for anyone, but if the bishop could navigate in way that helps everyone to feel accepted and loved by Christ and God, then he/she will be a powerful presence and one who can “roll with the punches” of change as they come and as times necessitate a church leader to do.

]]> By: OldTimeReligion http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-271 OldTimeReligion Sun, 16 Mar 2008 22:23:15 +0000 http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-271 I think what the church(not just the UMC)needs to get back to the basics. Start teaching the bible first and foremost. Expository preaching rather than relevant preaching. Preach through books of the bible rather than series. See and teach, God, Jesus and the bible for what they really are and mean. The church should be just as concerned with what God thinks as they are with what man thinks and just as concerned with rather or not they are offending God as they are with offending their fellow man. The church should not be run according to the latest pole but according to what the bible teaches, not pragmatically or using marketing scheme's to decide what to the church should do next to attract crowds or in the same way Walmart or a cell phone company would market their product. Follow the example of Thomas Oden and go back to reading the church fathers and the reformers, even John Wesley. Go back to the days when the church was not so political or politically correct, back to the days when the bible meant something. Real change would have to start at the top with the seminaries teaching the bible as innerant, infallible and TRUE and let this mentality trickle down to the lay people. I know this will be seen as dated and NOT the answer for the future but the question was what do we think would be the best path :) I think what the church(not just the UMC)needs to get back to the basics. Start teaching the bible first and foremost. Expository preaching rather than relevant preaching. Preach through books of the bible rather than series. See and teach, God, Jesus and the bible for what they really are and mean.
The church should be just as concerned with what God thinks as they are with what man thinks and just as concerned with rather or not they are offending God as they are with offending their fellow man.
The church should not be run according to the latest pole but according to what the bible teaches, not pragmatically or using marketing scheme’s to decide what to the church should do next to attract crowds or in the same way Walmart or a cell phone company would market their product.
Follow the example of Thomas Oden and go back to reading the church fathers and the reformers, even John Wesley. Go back to the days when the church was not so political or politically correct, back to the days when the bible meant something.
Real change would have to start at the top with the seminaries teaching the bible as innerant, infallible and TRUE and let this mentality trickle down to the lay people.
I know this will be seen as dated and NOT the answer for the future but the question was what do we think would be the best path :)

]]> By: sizz http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-270 sizz Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:10:59 +0000 http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-270 Newly elected Bishops need to have a vibrant, passionate energy to be able to instill a vision of effective leadership and growth within the denomination. They need to be able to lead the people they preside over, but equally and perhaps more importantly they need to be strong enough to stand up and create change above them as well. The main line denominations (all of them) seem stuck in their old ways of doing things. For example, in my opinion the UMC has a dated approach to the way Pastors are given their charges. We continue to take the young energetic pastors fresh out of seminary and stick them out in small towns that are dieing and shrinking in population - this often creates discouragement and frustration that they are not able to create the kind of change they wanted to create while praying/dreaming about their charge in Seminary. The church historically has kept its larger city churches as the "retirement" spot for its older pastors. What we have been experiencing is a major decline in the once large city churches as well, because we have older pastors who either don't want to accept that they need to make significant changes in how they "do worship" to reach people for Christ, or they are scared to do so for fear of losing the "old money" that is entrenched in these churches – or maybe they are just to tired to do so. In reality, everyone would embrace a vibrant pastor with a clear vision on how to reach folks who are not attending church. Many (not all) of these pastors lack the vision to lead, or simply do not take the time to discern God's vision for their church. They often see growing churches as competitors and rather than embrace and learn how they may be able to do the same things at their church, they stay stuck in their old ways and watch as their parishioners leave to go where their is passionate leadership to help them grow in their spiritual journey – or worse, just leave altogether. Perhaps these older pastors are just tired, but it seems there should be leadership at the Bishop level to instill the "fire in the belly" that is needed to continue to reach the folks sitting at home on Sundays. I also agree with previous posts above that we need Bishops who can lead by not being afraid to instill a Jesus like passion that embraces ALL the sinners (aren’t we all?), one that makes us feel welcome and loved. Holding true to Biblical beliefs yes, but not using scripture as a sword that cuts the heart out of Jesus’ teachings to love one another. Who are we to judge? Who are we to think we have the answers anyway? We can’t possibly know (without a doubt) God’s thoughts on all of these subjects. It is God’s place to judge, and He will. So rather than spend time judging whether one sin is greater than another, aren’t we called to love one another and work to clean up our own side of the equation? We love to control and think we have all the answers – in reality we have no control – only a belief that we do. That is our human nature. And that is precisely the reason why we stay mired in our old thoughts and beliefs. We must all be willing to admit our own sinful human nature to be able to love others as we love ourselves. We need Bishops who can lead up and down the chain of command to instill this passion in pastors so that from the pulpit – real change begins to occur. Where the hearts of people are transformed and we begin to see ourselves for who we are – sinners looking for a savior. Let’s face it, the day we stop making mistakes as humans, will be the day that we die. Our Bishops should not be afraid to make mistakes, not be afraid to lead for the kind of change that reaches those who need to be reached for Christ! Newly elected Bishops need to have a vibrant, passionate energy to be able to instill a vision of effective leadership and growth within the denomination. They need to be able to lead the people they preside over, but equally and perhaps more importantly they need to be strong enough to stand up and create change above them as well. The main line denominations (all of them) seem stuck in their old ways of doing things.
For example, in my opinion the UMC has a dated approach to the way Pastors are given their charges. We continue to take the young energetic pastors fresh out of seminary and stick them out in small towns that are dieing and shrinking in population - this often creates discouragement and frustration that they are not able to create the kind of change they wanted to create while praying/dreaming about their charge in Seminary.
The church historically has kept its larger city churches as the “retirement” spot for its older pastors. What we have been experiencing is a major decline in the once large city churches as well, because we have older pastors who either don’t want to accept that they need to make significant changes in how they “do worship” to reach people for Christ, or they are scared to do so for fear of losing the “old money” that is entrenched in these churches – or maybe they are just to tired to do so. In reality, everyone would embrace a vibrant pastor with a clear vision on how to reach folks who are not attending church.
Many (not all) of these pastors lack the vision to lead, or simply do not take the time to discern God’s vision for their church. They often see growing churches as competitors and rather than embrace and learn how they may be able to do the same things at their church, they stay stuck in their old ways and watch as their parishioners leave to go where their is passionate leadership to help them grow in their spiritual journey – or worse, just leave altogether. Perhaps these older pastors are just tired, but it seems there should be leadership at the Bishop level to instill the “fire in the belly” that is needed to continue to reach the folks sitting at home on Sundays.
I also agree with previous posts above that we need Bishops who can lead by not being afraid to instill a Jesus like passion that embraces ALL the sinners (aren’t we all?), one that makes us feel welcome and loved. Holding true to Biblical beliefs yes, but not using scripture as a sword that cuts the heart out of Jesus’ teachings to love one another. Who are we to judge? Who are we to think we have the answers anyway? We can’t possibly know (without a doubt) God’s thoughts on all of these subjects. It is God’s place to judge, and He will. So rather than spend time judging whether one sin is greater than another, aren’t we called to love one another and work to clean up our own side of the equation? We love to control and think we have all the answers – in reality we have no control – only a belief that we do. That is our human nature. And that is precisely the reason why we stay mired in our old thoughts and beliefs. We must all be willing to admit our own sinful human nature to be able to love others as we love ourselves.
We need Bishops who can lead up and down the chain of command to instill this passion in pastors so that from the pulpit – real change begins to occur. Where the hearts of people are transformed and we begin to see ourselves for who we are – sinners looking for a savior. Let’s face it, the day we stop making mistakes as humans, will be the day that we die. Our Bishops should not be afraid to make mistakes, not be afraid to lead for the kind of change that reaches those who need to be reached for Christ!

]]> By: Sandy http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-269 Sandy Sat, 15 Mar 2008 07:08:20 +0000 http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-269 For xuxagirl87 My reply above, was in regards to what this person had said. Sandy For xuxagirl87

My reply above, was in regards to what this person had said.

Sandy

]]> By: Sandy http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-268 Sandy Sat, 15 Mar 2008 07:06:38 +0000 http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-268 I am surprised that you have the feeling your views are in the minority. As the years go by, I have felt as though my conservative beliefs and viewpoints are seen as "old-fashioned" and that I am "intolerant" of diversity. I don't believe that when I am intolerant of sinful behavior, that I am rude or disrespectful to the person exhibiting the behavior. There is a difference between loving the person, but not condoning the sinful behavior. To be honest, I don't think a good Bishop needs to be anything or do anything except try to live the way we are all called to live by God (that's hard enough!). But, as Paul pointed out, for those who are in positions of leadership, they are called to a higher standing. This being said, Bishops are human. I just pray that those who know they are engaging in any activity/behavior that is not in alliance with biblical living, to please not apply. I pray they know and remember what a huge responsibility it is for people to look up to them as examples of how one should live their life. And, I hope that those who are newer Christians, and even those who aren't yet Christians, realize that everyone is human and therefore, sinful. Meaning, that, except for Christ Jesus and God, most humans will disappoint you in one way or another. The only One you can REALLY depend on, is God/Jesus. The Bible was written with much prayer, discussion, and intervention of the Holy Spirit, guiding the authors to write what He wanted in the Bible. There is much also written on how the church should be set up and what kind of responsibilities Christians have towards each other and non-Christians. When I hear you describe yourself as a "Christian, pro-choice, and pro-homosexuality", I hope you can see that some are reacting to how they feel about the sinful behavior, not how they feel about you. We are all guilty of sin. It makes no one person any better than another in God's eyes. We are simply saved by His Grace. I do believe that, having taken several Bible studies, having worked as a high risk, Labor and Delivery nurse across from Tiller's Clinic, and having prayed, earnestly, about abortion, I do believe ending a human life is not our place. I have been with many women who wished they could go back in time and take back that decision. So many grieve that decision. Many cannot conceive when they are wanting to conceive. Many believe that they are being "punished" by God for having aborted a child. But, as with all sinful behaviors, we all experience natural consequences. Some, loose their lives or uteruses. Just because it is legal, does not mean it is always safe. Here, in Kansas, Tiller can do abortions up to the 9th month. At what point do we know the soul is "born"? I do know, having held an 8 week baby a patient miscarried, that there was no doubt about it being a baby. She lay in my hand, all the finger and toes having formed...her head, perfectly formed... . Did you know that all babies have their teeth already formed, just under their gums, before they're born? There was a wonderful picture, recently, circulating on emails, about a surgeon, who had done an incission on the uterus, many months prior to the baby's intended birth, where he repaired the infant's heart(I think) - and then went to sew the uterus shut again - and the baby reached up and grabbed his finger...! Some people argue that I would feel differently had I been in a situation where I had an unexpectant pregnancy. Well, my "unexpected" child turned 19 yrs. old yesterday. And, you know, God worked it all out. You have to trust that He will. I could give you verse after verse about how much God loved you and knew you before you were born, while you were still in your mother's womb, but if you are choosing what you want to believe in the Bible and what you don't want to believe, then it wouldn't matter. On the subject of homosexuality, I again, refer to the Bible. But, that does not mean I judge a homosexual's behavior. It isn't my place to. But, would I wish a different lifestyle for that person? Of course I would! I would do the same for the alcoholic, the adulterer, and the person who commits any other sin. How sad for them not to be able to experience the kind of love God only meant for a man and a woman. I feel bad for myself when I sin. Sin always causes a separation from God - and that is the worst part. But, if I didn't acknowledge that I have sinned, I can't ask for forgiveness. I wouldn't want that for my fellow brother or sister in Christ. But, I don't know how to approach anyone with the belief that certain behavior is sinful - without being seen as "intolerant". I am intolerant of sin - and you should be too! But, that doesn't mean I would mind sitting next to you in the pew. I also believe many people walk through the journey at different rates. I also believe that Satan is VERY good at lying to us. So, yes, I believe you can be a Christian and believe that homosexuality is not a sin...but I hope that, some day, you can see it for what it is. It doesn't make you less than a Christian. The only thing, I believe, that defines you as a Christian, is believing that Jessus died for your sins; that Jesus is God's Son, and that you asked the Holy Spirit to live in your heart...that you WANT to follow HIm. The Holy Spirit will prompt you to doing what is right and knowing when something isn't...but you have to want to know, and be willing to change it. In many ways, I feel the same as you do. I find it very frustrating that these opinions are taught to my child, at school, as something that is NOT a sin, but I am not allowed to go into the school to say it is. Planned Parenthood is allowed to come into the high school, without my permission, and teach that, "the morning after pill is a method of birth control and has NOTHING to do with abortion." They also told my daughter's class, "Don't tell your parents and don't tell us you're under 18 if you are - just say you are 18 and then we don't have to call your parents..." Luckily, I did teach my child what the morning after pill was and that she could confide in me, no matter what choices she had made that I might not approve of. However, the school did not ask me (although I volunteered, as a nurse, to explain the function of the morning after pill) or anyone else to talk about adoption or other alternatives. For years, I kept an extra room free for any girl with an unwanted pregnancy - I was willing to have her stay with us, feed her, care for her, and help her through her pregnancy. So, yes, that's how sincerely I believe in saving a baby. It is difficult for me to understand why this is supposedly a woman's choice. As far as I know, we are not allowed to kill them after they are outside of the uterus. Since where someone lives or what someone is dependent on make a difference as to whether it was ok to kill them or not? But, having these beliefs, doesn't mean I don't understand how someone might think they have no other options - especially when the school is teaching what they are. So, I would hope the Bishop makes decisions based on the BIble, and that he/she consults Him daily, love Him with all his/her heart, soul, and mind...and treats everyone respectfully, with no regard as to their beliefs. And, I hope the Bishop sees all the pastors' skills and gifts and uses them wisely...and in accordance to His Will. Blessings, Sandy I am surprised that you have the feeling your views are in the minority. As the years go by, I have felt as though my conservative beliefs and viewpoints are seen as “old-fashioned” and that I am “intolerant” of diversity. I don’t believe that when I am intolerant of sinful behavior, that I am rude or disrespectful to the person exhibiting the behavior. There is a difference between loving the person, but not condoning the sinful behavior.

To be honest, I don’t think a good Bishop needs to be anything or do anything except try to live the way we are all called to live by God (that’s hard enough!). But, as Paul pointed out, for those who are in positions of leadership, they are called to a higher standing. This being said, Bishops are human. I just pray that those who know they are engaging in any activity/behavior that is not in alliance with biblical living, to please not apply. I pray they know and remember what a huge responsibility it is for people to look up to them as examples of how one should live their life. And, I hope that those who are newer Christians, and even those who aren’t yet Christians, realize that everyone is human and therefore, sinful. Meaning, that, except for Christ Jesus and God, most humans will disappoint you in one way or another. The only One you can REALLY depend on, is God/Jesus.

The Bible was written with much prayer, discussion, and intervention of the Holy Spirit, guiding the authors to write what He wanted in the Bible. There is much also written on how the church should be set up and what kind of responsibilities Christians have towards each other and non-Christians.

When I hear you describe yourself as a “Christian, pro-choice, and pro-homosexuality”, I hope you can see that some are reacting to how they feel about the sinful behavior, not how they feel about you. We are all guilty of sin. It makes no one person any better than another in God’s eyes. We are simply saved by His Grace.

I do believe that, having taken several Bible studies, having worked as a high risk, Labor and Delivery nurse across from Tiller’s Clinic, and having prayed, earnestly, about abortion, I do believe ending a human life is not our place. I have been with many women who wished they could go back in time and take back that decision. So many grieve that decision. Many cannot conceive when they are wanting to conceive. Many believe that they are being “punished” by God for having aborted a child. But, as with all sinful behaviors, we all experience natural consequences. Some, loose their lives or uteruses. Just because it is legal, does not mean it is always safe. Here, in Kansas, Tiller can do abortions up to the 9th month. At what point do we know the soul is “born”? I do know, having held an 8 week baby a patient miscarried, that there was no doubt about it being a baby. She lay in my hand, all the finger and toes having formed…her head, perfectly formed… . Did you know that all babies have their teeth already formed, just under their gums, before they’re born? There was a wonderful picture, recently, circulating on emails, about a surgeon, who had done an incission on the uterus, many months prior to the baby’s intended birth, where he repaired the infant’s heart(I think) - and then went to sew the uterus shut again - and the baby reached up and grabbed his finger…! Some people argue that I would feel differently had I been in a situation where I had an unexpectant pregnancy. Well, my “unexpected” child turned 19 yrs. old yesterday. And, you know, God worked it all out. You have to trust that He will. I could give you verse after verse about how much God loved you and knew you before you were born, while you were still in your mother’s womb, but if you are choosing what you want to believe in the Bible and what you don’t want to believe, then it wouldn’t matter.

On the subject of homosexuality, I again, refer to the Bible. But, that does not mean I judge a homosexual’s behavior. It isn’t my place to. But, would I wish a different lifestyle for that person? Of course I would! I would do the same for the alcoholic, the adulterer, and the person who commits any other sin. How sad for them not to be able to experience the kind of love God only meant for a man and a woman. I feel bad for myself when I sin. Sin always causes a separation from God - and that is the worst part. But, if I didn’t acknowledge that I have sinned, I can’t ask for forgiveness. I wouldn’t want that for my fellow brother or sister in Christ. But, I don’t know how to approach anyone with the belief that certain behavior is sinful - without being seen as “intolerant”. I am intolerant of sin - and you should be too! But, that doesn’t mean I would mind sitting next to you in the pew. I also believe many people walk through the journey at different rates. I also believe that Satan is VERY good at lying to us. So, yes, I believe you can be a Christian and believe that homosexuality is not a sin…but I hope that, some day, you can see it for what it is. It doesn’t make you less than a Christian. The only thing, I believe, that defines you as a Christian, is believing that Jessus died for your sins; that Jesus is God’s Son, and that you asked the Holy Spirit to live in your heart…that you WANT to follow HIm. The Holy Spirit will prompt you to doing what is right and knowing when something isn’t…but you have to want to know, and be willing to change it.

In many ways, I feel the same as you do. I find it very frustrating that these opinions are taught to my child, at school, as something that is NOT a sin, but I am not allowed to go into the school to say it is. Planned Parenthood is allowed to come into the high school, without my permission, and teach that, “the morning after pill is a method of birth control and has NOTHING to do with abortion.” They also told my daughter’s class, “Don’t tell your parents and don’t tell us you’re under 18 if you are - just say you are 18 and then we don’t have to call your parents…” Luckily, I did teach my child what the morning after pill was and that she could confide in me, no matter what choices she had made that I might not approve of. However, the school did not ask me (although I volunteered, as a nurse, to explain the function of the morning after pill) or anyone else to talk about adoption or other alternatives. For years, I kept an extra room free for any girl with an unwanted pregnancy - I was willing to have her stay with us, feed her, care for her, and help her through her pregnancy. So, yes, that’s how sincerely I believe in saving a baby. It is difficult for me to understand why this is supposedly a woman’s choice. As far as I know, we are not allowed to kill them after they are outside of the uterus. Since where someone lives or what someone is dependent on make a difference as to whether it was ok to kill them or not? But, having these beliefs, doesn’t mean I don’t understand how someone might think they have no other options - especially when the school is teaching what they are.

So, I would hope the Bishop makes decisions based on the BIble, and that he/she consults Him daily, love Him with all his/her heart, soul, and mind…and treats everyone respectfully, with no regard as to their beliefs. And, I hope the Bishop sees all the pastors’ skills and gifts and uses them wisely…and in accordance to His Will.

Blessings,
Sandy

]]> By: kangecob http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-267 kangecob Sat, 15 Mar 2008 04:53:51 +0000 http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-267 I would hope to be lead by a bishop who embodies the message of Christ to such a degree that he is able to seek God's approval over human approval. I believe a leader who is able to envision the big picture as God intends and able is to courageously and passionately pursue that vision in a charismatic but appropriate and genuine way will have a profound impact on the direction things go. I agree very much with what you listed in terms of what you are looking for in a bishop. In order for people to want to follow they must be motivated and inspired as opposed to intimidated or critically judged. It is important that the Bishop has a clear understanding of the current climate of the world we are living in so that he or she might be able to seek direction and guidance from God in terms of how to effectively lead the church and to bring as many people as possible to Jesus Christ. From what I have witnessed at COR I think you embody many if not all of the charicteristics we are looking for which without question will aid you in making your decision. I would hope to be lead by a bishop who embodies the message of Christ to such a degree that he is able to seek God’s approval over human approval. I believe a leader who is able to envision the big picture as God intends and able is to courageously and passionately pursue that vision in a charismatic but appropriate and genuine way will have a profound impact on the direction things go. I agree very much with what you listed in terms of what you are looking for in a bishop. In order for people to want to follow they must be motivated and inspired as opposed to intimidated or critically judged. It is important that the Bishop has a clear understanding of the current climate of the world we are living in so that he or she might be able to seek direction and guidance from God in terms of how to effectively lead the church and to bring as many people as possible to Jesus Christ. From what I have witnessed at COR I think you embody many if not all of the charicteristics we are looking for which without question will aid you in making your decision.

]]> By: Adam http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-266 Adam Sat, 15 Mar 2008 03:48:47 +0000 http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2008/03/14/qualities-of-an-excellent-bishop/#comment-266 Great comments so far, I'd love to hear from more of you on this issue. We had five great interviews today and four more on Saturday morning. One thing to note - in the United Methodist Church we have female bishops as well as males. Several of the most effective bishops I know are women, giving outstanding leadership to the church and expressing the qualities mentioned above. One of the candidates we're interviewing tomorrow is a woman. Again, thank you to each of you for your thoughts. Great comments so far, I’d love to hear from more of you on this issue. We had five great interviews today and four more on Saturday morning. One thing to note - in the United Methodist Church we have female bishops as well as males. Several of the most effective bishops I know are women, giving outstanding leadership to the church and expressing the qualities mentioned above. One of the candidates we’re interviewing tomorrow is a woman. Again, thank you to each of you for your thoughts.

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