Christ, Christians and the Culture Wars

11 Comment(s)

1. HelenRansom | Jan 14, 2008 | Reply

   I just have to say I throughly enjoyed Saturday night’s service.

   Adam, I am so thankful to you for sharing your personal story in regards to abortion! One can’t help but look around the church and the community and thank God that your mother did not follow through on her father’s orders. Thank you for being bold enough to share such a personal story!

2. HelenRansom | Jan 14, 2008 | Reply

   Excuse the typos - that’s what I get for typing with a baby in my lap!

3. Canopus | Jan 15, 2008 | Reply

   I, too, was deeply moved by that story. What courage Adam’s mother had to stand against others who wanted her to dispense with the baby in secret.

   I once heard someone say that “suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.” It struck me that abortion is the same thing. A permanent solution to a temporary problem.

4. Tom | Jan 16, 2008 | Reply

   Great story about Adam and his mother. That story showed the importance of living your faith. Just think where the church would be if Adam’s mother thought faith was just something you slept though on Sunday morning. I loved how the story places value on life. Mother Theresa once said that if you don’t value life at the beginning you won’t value it elsewhere. I like how Adam’s family or at least his mother valued life over comfort and over money.

5. Evelyn Summers | Jan 18, 2008 | Reply

   I have heard the last 2 servmons. In the first sermon Adam I thought I heard you share that you would be presenting all the sides of each question to the best of your ability. I didn’t hear anything about you also sharing your personal beliefs. I was surprised this last Saturday when you shared your thoughts about abortion.

6. mhagerman | Jan 18, 2008 | Reply

   Seeing Gray is dangerous. Throughout this sermon series, we’re being preached to on the virtue of Seeing Gray as though this is the way we should live and think. I see no more virtue in Seeing Gray than I do the extremes….actually I see less.

   In the political realm, Seeing Gray isn’t so much dangerous as it is futile. You will never see a book titled “The 10 Greatest Moderates/Centrists/Independents in American History”. Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Truman, Reagan — these were extremists. Their positions and actions — what made them great — did not reflect a lot of gray. Actually, there was a time when we were asked to See Gray regarding our politicians….John Kerry. “Nuance” and “Complexity” were lifted page and verse from his campaign and were the focus of the media during much of the ‘04 election. Frankly, I found Kerry’s Gray needlessly confusing instead of virtuous.

   But that’s politics….I can accept futility and confusion there because it’s expected. Seeing Gray in a church setting…..that’s dangerous. The danger lies in the inevitable shift from the Gray of combining policy differences to the Gray of combining right and wrong.

   God is not Gray. Jesus is not Gray. Jesus is an extremist. Jesus is extreme love and extreme morality. Those aren’t opposing forces….black and white are, right and wrong are. Jesus was promised the world by the devil and rejected it. Jesus called the religious leaders any number of demeaning names from “Whitewashed Tombs” to a “Brood of Vipers”. He destroyed the profiteering at the temple. Where do you see nuance and complexity in this? Had Jesus been “Seeing Gray” as we’re being instructed, He’d have accepted the Devil’s promise and ruled benevolently as king. He’d have undergone sensitivity training and been more sympathetic to the religious leaders’ positions. He would have encouraged the money changers to donate a portion of their proceeds to charitable efforts. Would this have been right — of course not. Would it have been Gray, complex and nuanced — you betcha.

   Morality and Love/Compassion are not opposing forces and hardly fit the roles of Black and White. I am against 96% of the abortions that take place but that doesn’t mean I don’t grieve for women that find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy…regardless of their decision. I believe that homosexuality is 100% sinful but I recognize immense courage among the homosexuals that I know. My heart goes out to men that I know that have selfishly pursued money to the exclusion of all else and ruined practically every relationship they’ve been in. These aren’t Gray stances….I’m extremely against abortion, homosexuality and greed.

   I guess to sum up, I’d say that Seeing Gray isn’t to be lauded. If this nation Saw Gray, it would still be under England’s rule. It would have seen the Jews all but wiped out and Germany controlling much of Europe. It would still be at war with Japan. It would be split between North and South. It would still be fighting the Cold War. Controversial issues don’t necessarily have truth on both sides. Slavery only has one moral truth, Porn doesn’t require that you understand the pornographer’s viewpoint, Thou Shalt not Steal isn’t Gray.

   Lastly, I want to reiterate that it is not my aim to be disrespectful of Adam or this series. I admire Adam for tackling these types of issues and respect him to the extent that he is willing to make his positions known just as I hope my positions are respected. Adam was wrong in saying “I suspect most of you find yourself in the [Middle Way], otherwise I would have driven you crazy a long time ago and you would have left”. I am far from the Middle Way and many times Adam does drive me crazy but I don’t see “Reaffirming traditional Christian morals amongst its members” tattooed on the inside of the church. If that were the goal of this church, yeah, I’d have left. I doubt I, or many others, would have ever become members in the first place. Nevertheless, I would argue that such a goal is part of becoming a “deeply committed Christian” and to the extent that Seeing Gray moves away from that, I find it extremely dangerous.

7. Jeremy | Jan 19, 2008 | Reply

   It is important to note that gray is a color that has a multitude of shades.

   For instance, being against 96% of all abortions indicates tacit approval of the remaining 4%. Like it or not, that is still a gray stance.

   Having the willingness to recognize the existence of nuance and complexity on certain issues does not require one to be morally neutral on those issues.

   In other words, seeing gray does not entail being gray.

8. harleydds | Jan 20, 2008 | Reply

   mhagerman
   I am on the right hand side of the road with you(look back at my postings on would Jesus be a Republican or Democrat). I think though that God is, mercifully, gray. If not there would be no grace. Is God the only one who can give true justice? Absolutely! But fortunately for you and I , we won’t get justice. Because God can see gray, we’ll get mercy.

   harley

9. Believer | Jan 21, 2008 | Reply

   Adam’s personal story was touching. Adam’s mother made the heart wrenching choice to have her child. However, so many pregnancies do not have such a beautiful ending to the story. Many unwanted children are victims of abuse, poverty and lack the basic needs. Deciding to continue with an unwanted pregnancy often results in an unwanted and sometimes unloved child. Most often the mother shamefully struggles to raise the child alone; without the father; without family. Society tells her she is immoral and that they should not have to support her and her illegitimate child.
   Let’s not fail to see the issue as it really is. Very complicated. I am also Pro Life with a heavy heart.

10. Michael Hagerman | Jan 22, 2008 | Reply

    “In other words, seeing gray does not entail being gray.” — Jeremy, good point. I like to shop whatever I’m about to post around to my friends and family and both a good friend of mine and my parents made much the same argument.

    Couple questions for you: Would you be irritated if Adam was challenging you to BE gray as opposed to just seeing it? There’s a very fine line between seeing gray and being gray….do you think it’s being overstepped?

    If in this sermon series, Adam cited you all of the Bible passages that support Conservative positions, then gave Conservative interpretations of Jesus’ parables and closed by saying “I just want everyone to see both sides of the issues….to See Gray” — would you say he’s only asking you to See Conservatism and not Be Conservative? Seriously, what’s the difference? Do you think Adam’s regular sermons are aimed at just getting you to See Christianity but not to Be A Christian, not to live a Christian life?

    Adam once told a story about a guy who was on a diet or had some New Year’s resolution not to eat Krispy Kreme doughnuts….and I’m going to steal it. Anyway, he was struggling with the temptation to eat said doughnuts and thought maybe I’ll just drive around the store and smell them instead. Then maybe I’ll just go inside and look at them. No, Adam isn’t telling us to Be Gray, Be Liberal or even Be Centrist…but he may as well be! He’s just saying drive around the Gray store and smell it. Go inside the Gray store and look at all of its nice ideals. Listen as he proclaims all of Gray’s virtues. Oh but no, no, no, don’t actually Be Gray….you’re right, he never “said” that.

    I’ll reiterate here, Morality isn’t black and Compassion white or vice versa. They’re not mutually exclusive concepts so mixing them hardly constitutes gray. Black and White are opposing forces. Right and wrong are opposing forces and so are liberal and conservative for the most part. God wasn’t black and Jesus white. The Bible details God’s compassion as much as it does Jesus’ morality. I think we need to move away from characterizing either one as Black or White or even Gray for that matter. It doesn’t fit.

11. Clif Guy | Feb 9, 2008 | Reply

    I know I’m late to the discussion here, but I thought this article about splits among baptists is relevant:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22918744/

    I realize there are dozens and dozens of baptist denominations so it’s no surprise that they don’t all agree. The interesting thing is how they divide along the same general lines as Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and all the other mainline denominations.

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