Was Jesus a Democrat or Republican?
In January I begin a new sermon series called Seeing Gray (you should be able to watch the promo for the series here on my blog). The first sermon will explore the question of whether Jesus would be seen as a liberal or a conservative in today’s polarized society. But at this time I’d like to invite you to share your thoughts with me on this question: If Jesus were an American citizen living among us today do you think he would be more likely to be a Democrat or a Republican? Give me a short reason for your response (remember, in the blog world, if you want people to read your responses, short is better!). I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
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kyleholt | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
Since the Bush administration took office and I have seen the entire Republican party shift further and further away from what I feel is justice, fairness, and care for people, I have shifted further away from my traditional Republican roots.
Today’s Democrats try to act more like Jesus. They want to take care of the orphans and widows. But they fail as well.
So where I once was a Republican, I now see myself in the middle with a tendency to lean left until the Republicans realize they have gone too far.
But in truth, I think both parties are skewed by politics. WWJD? I think he’d say, “Honor your leaders, but seek to do what God wants you to do. You can’t count on politicians to fulfill the word of the Lord.”
It is amazing, though. When I was nominally religious, I did not pay much attention to the religious beliefs or even ethics of politicians. Now that’s the primary thing I base my vote around. Who will do the “most” right?
Love the blog, Pastor Hamilton!
5xReece | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
I don’t think he’d claim either - that way he would not alienate either Party although I’d have to say he’d be more conservative than liberal - there’d be no pro-choice for him, only pro-life. To me, his mission would be to collaborate and make change for the good rather than pick a side and advance one party.
Bob Morwell | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
I think Jesus could easily be considered more liberal than conservative. His view of wealth was hardly one which I see the “trickle down” supply side types endorsing, and the kind of people he hung around would certainly opened him to attacks from those who consider themselves the Moral Majority.
I don’t think he would approve of pre-emptive wars based on bad intelligence, or the use of torture…having been a torture victim himself.
But I also agree that he would collaborate with people of good will rather than pick one side or advance one party. After all the Pharisees were both a religious and political party in his time and he fought with some and had others whom he counted as allies.
Ultimately, he would be unconcerned with party politics and stereotypical labels. He would probably honk off everyone to some degree…just as he always has!
dan_williams | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
There is a distinct level of arrogance in government today… more so than ever before. Just this morning in a press conference President Bush spoke of unwavering values and principals in reference to a question about what would likely make a president elect successful. He downplayed the importance of the origin of such a set of moral imperatives and skirted the question of whether or not religion or political experience played a more important role in chosing who to vote for.
Jesus, I believe would, as he said “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” JESUS is my King and I will follow him. I don’t believe that He would be either Republican or Democrat. If He were part of a political party, He would be in a class of His own, a pure and holy class of His own.
We do however have a responsibility as stewards of God’s earthly kingdom to participate in the selection of our leaders and seek out those who would most mirror His desires for this world. The answer is in fact decidedly gray. Only through prayer and Divine guidance will any of us be able to make the most correct decision.
Canopus | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
I agree with Dan Williams.
But maybe if Jesus were asked that question, He would answer with a question that made people think, instead of answering it with a straight answer.
I just listened to a podcast about the downfall of ancient Assyria. It is called Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History. It was very sobering. He begins with the scene at the end of Planet of the Apes with the Statue of Liberty in the sand. He muses about whether empires at their height ever think their downfall will happen. He then explains how quickly the downfall of the Assyrians came, how completely they were erased from the earth, and how quickly and utterly they were forgotten.
He explains some of the theories about why certain empires were so cruel. He details some of the cruelties of the Assyrians and the way their kings bragged in order to subdue the other peoples with fear. The Assyrians ruled with fear and cruelty for more than 1500 years and then finally two enemies got together and were able to obliterate them. Two hundred years later, Xenophon came upon the ruins and asked what ruins these were, and was told they were Persian. Two hundred years later nobody even remembered the mighty and feared Assyrians! The way Dan told it was much more haunting than I can retell it. He explains that the surrounding civilizations had had it up to here with the Assyrians and were just waiting for their chance. The podcast is named “Judgment at Niineveh.” He keeps calling the Assyrians the “Nazis of the ancient world.” But that may be unfair to Nazis.
I am not saying directly that any empire today is that power-mad or that cruel, to where some powerful enemies are just waiting for their chance, and Dan didn’t say it either (but he makes you think it.) In fact Dan Carlin has another podcast, “Common Sense with Dan Carlin,” that is right down the middle. But his history podcast asks questions that make you think.
I think Jesus, if someone tried to ask that question, would maybe ask a question that reminds us that empires come and go and the question is do we put too much trust in power.
That’s not a cop-out, I do vote my conscience but there are issues on either side I don’t agree with, and I regret the two-party system for that reason. But maybe Jesus would remind us that His kingdom is not of this world (good since the world is doing such a sorry job.)
M_Monroe | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
Interesting topic! This past year I did what I believe Jesus would do. I registered as an unaffiliated voter. Since my first election I had been affiliated with one of the two main parties. My recent decision has given me the freedom to consciously vote for the person, not the party. Hard line party affiliated voters would and have said I waffle on issues. I don’t waffle on issues and don’t believe Jesus did either. I research the issues and the candidates. I vote the way I believe Jesus would. I base my vote on religious beliefs not necessarily on what is trendy or what may be morally wrong. Jesus led by example. I try to follow His lead.
lonestar | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
I’m completely puzzled with the topic of this posting. My wife and I joined COR on 2 Dec 07 but have been attending as visitors since 11 March 07. Why do we have to inject politics into an individual’s religions life? We left the Episcopal Church and gravitated to the Anglican side; however, because we were not growing in our faith, decided to move toward the United Methodist. There are almost unlimitied opportunities to grow in our faith and COR seemed to fit the bill since it appeared to be somewhat netural with respect to the left or right. But now with this inaugural blog, this silly question is posed….and now the decision we made to join COR seems to be somewhat questionable. There is enough division in the United States between the left/right, Dems/Republicans - why is it necessary to bring it into the church discussion?
Reading some of the postings make it sound as though some Republicans or Democrats are sub-human.
WWJD? It’s not for us to decide - it’s what we think he would want us to do.
xuxagirl87 | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
Though I find myself agreeing with the liberal party more often than the conservatives, I’d like to think that Jesus would do what’s right, regardless of party affiliation, treating each situation individually, and always striving for what’s right, even if its not always the same as what’s easy, or what makes him look good. I also think that what we call “justice” would do well to practice a little less grudge-holding and hunger for vengeance (even when it is well-deserved), and a little more Love. That doesn’t mean I disagree with removing people from society who have proven themselves a danger to it… just a bit more humility would be nice.
~Lia
dlg | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
Don’t give up on us yet. You will be amazed how Adam will challenge you to think for yourself about politics and not be consumed to think that there is only one answer…Democrat or Republican. Through the Holy Spirit, Adam will help you open your eyes to how Jesus might think, and trust me…it won’t be one or the other. Jesus was in a class of His own. There are a lot of people that think you can’t be a Christian if you are a Democrat or vice versa. Adam will but that idea to bed, just you wait and see!
lonestar | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
I don’t believe I need Adam to help me open my eyes on politics, nor anyone else for that matter. Who said anyone was consumed with any one answer - Republican or Democrat? While I don’t doubt that Adam is infinitely qualified from a religious standpoint to be a pastor, I don’t particularly want to know from Adam how Jesus might think regarding His own politics. I am a Christian, regardless of my political stand and am very secure with it.
growingcloser | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
Welcome, lonestar. Building a Christan community where non-religious and nominally religious persons are becoming deeply committed Christans can sometimes look a bit unusual….having been around here for some years, I’d encourage you to hang in there….it sometimes takes a while to understand the way Adam helps us to find our way Home. The Via Media is an interesting place…a place for open dialogue, a place where frank and open conversation is encouraged. Most of us here don’t agree on everything….maybe a few of us that don’t completely agree on many things….I can tell you this….as I have embraced the uncertainty of “Living in Gray” I have come to understand and even respect many varied ways of looking at our world. I have discovered that while it may look like we are very different..in the final analysis we have much more in common than may have been initially apparent..and that as we grow in understanding we grow to be more like Jesus…and often our differences are frequently rooted in a very similar faith. Adam’s approach isn’t about dividing us…..it is about getting us to think..and to consider a wide spectrum of thought ulitmately allowing us to find our commonality and come together to be more like Jesus. Isn’t that what Jesus would do? Merry Christmas Everyone!
jhartkc | Dec 21, 2007 | Reply
Was Jesus a Republican or a Democrat? Hard to say since it is often difficult to discern what either party stands for these days … both seem to be focused on acquiring power for power’s sake. Jesus wasn’t interested in acquiring power; he was interested in leading people to the Power. On the one hand he was a revolutionary, bringing a new vision and passion to mankind. On the other hand he was a conservative, relying on God’s foundational Word to support his vision. Was Jesus a Republican because he represented all humanity on the cross or was Jesus a Democrat because he believed that the abundant life should be available to all? I believe Jesus would turn the question inside out and ask, “Where is God in this discussion?” Does this discussion lead us closer to the Kingdom of our Creator or does it divide us and potentially move us away from God’s Kingdom? Republican … Democrat … these are arbitrary terms that beg the question of how we as individuals and we as a society can find ways of drawing closer to the Kingdom of our Creator. The answer to the question was Jesus a Republican or a Democrat is yes … for Jesus will meet you wherever you are, left or right, liberal or conservative, Republican or Democrat … he will meet you and show you the Way.
Clif Guy | Dec 22, 2007 | Reply
God is neither a Republican nor a Democrat. While He cares deeply about each one of us, I don’t believe He cares much at all about that. In fact, the only social group with any claim on God’s favor is the Jews. And history shows how they’ve fared under that favor.
Makes me think of your recent sermon about Mary. God’s favor can carry with it great hardship.
Chuck Russell | Dec 22, 2007 | Reply
I think there is an interesting parallel here. Was Jesus a Sadducee, or a Pharisee? If you look at what Jesus did he both agreed with, and disagreed with certain elements of both of those groups. His preaching was about the Kingdom of God, one that transcended the political parties of his day. I’m guessing he would agree with Republicans on some points, with Democrats on others, and have a whole lot to say to both of them that neither would like too much. Maybe so much so that they might rally together and Crucify him!
churchmedic | Dec 22, 2007 | Reply
If Jesus were alive would He be a Democrat or a Republican…
This is the same question I bet people asked
years ago except they said:
Is the Rabi a Pharisee or a Sadducee.
(quick history/vernacular lesson here)
Although it is argued – Pharisee is derived from the Hebrew word parosim meaning specifier (others believe it is perusim meaning “separated ones”) as the Pharisees were the ones that were supposed to specify the correct meaning of God’s law to the people…
Sadducee it is theorized came from the Hebrew tsadiq – which means “righteous” interestingly enough the Sadducees were the party of those with political power – allied with the Herodian and Roman rulers
I believe that God himself has the power to specify His own law – and that he is Righteous enough to do so…
In John 18 Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world…”
I do not think that Jesus would be a Democrat – or a Republican – the same way he was not a Pharisee or a Sadducee - - Jesus specified the law – and was Righteous … I would venture to say that the Kingdom of God does not look like America – nor does it look like Italy – or Israel – or even … Iraq.
The Kingdom is for all people – Christ died for all people.
You - Me - Red state - Blue State
I believe if Jesus were alive today he would be working to feed those who live in poverty – not what we as Americans consider poverty – but true poverty – you know those that are powerless to make a change in their situation …
Like Darfur and similar struggles -
Jesus would be there healing the blind, making the lame to walk – and even getting in front of a struggle and dying to set those people free… Jesus would specify the law by laying his life down for it (did he not already do this? )
Jesus would make it so that we are righteous (think he did this as well…) through his Death
Sound Familiar? Jesus is not a republican – Jesus is not a democrat – even if people in those parties are made after the image of God.
Jesus would not align with one lawmaker - instead - I think he would set people free from the chains of organized religion as well as organized political affiliations and tell us to “Love God with all our heart - lean not to our own understandings - in all our ways Acknowledge Him - as He will direct our paths” to Serve others and treat them as ourselves - to do the same even with the least of these… and to lay our lives down for another — even if this meant standing in front of a gun - soldier - or dare say an army. Jesus would be an Army of One with a hell of a big band marching going around Jericho singing He shall overcome…
of course these are all the thoughts of a young pastor out of the most densely populated Liberal state in the nation - New Jersey
- Pastor Glenn - www.UnboxedChurch.com
Unboxing the Image of God in … You
ps - this year like all others I will go home after voting put some bleach in the tub and disinfect myself…
harleydds | Dec 22, 2007 | Reply
The United States of America is the “Last Best Hope of Mankind”. It is also the Last Best Hope of preserving Christianity (I mean –look around—who else is working on it?) So, it seems, Christ has entrusted His Church to the American People! Now we may be flippant about this fact, but never-the less it seems to be evident that this is the case. Maybe I[‘m wrong. Maybe this cause is entrusted to the Indian people, or the Chinese, or Russians, or Europeans, or Islam, or the pigmies in Africa! If I’m right then this political stuff is important. Would Jesus be—(Is Jesus aligned with or supportive of) Republican or Democrat? Who knows The following is a presidential farewell . You never heard it. Take a minute or two to read it—process it and see if it has any meaning to this discussion.
Farewell Address to the Nation
codeemax | Dec 22, 2007 | Reply
I assume this question is a ‘nonsense’ question because to answer either way is ‘nonsense’.
So, the intent must be to initiate some type of meaninful dialogue related to the real question: ‘What is the connection, if there is any, between Christianity and politics?’
I recall that Adam once suggested (before the last election) that the candidates from both major parties would be invited to speak (not in a worship service, I presume) at COR. Later, he hinted that former President Jimmy Carter might be a speaker here—later Carter spoke, with others, in a video program, I believe. At the time, I was opposed to having any politician visit our Church in any way.
So far, some of the comments in this blog address the real issue. To chose to defend the question of Republican or Democrat on one side or the other is not a meaningful response.
What would Jesus think of the political situation in our country? How would he react to it? Would he secularize by inviting politicians to speak to his disciples and followers? To what purpose would that be beneficial? Would it be counter-productive to His mission and meaningless in its effect on His Kingdom?
The answers are the same today as they were 2000 years ago. I’m not certain what the answers are, but I’m thinking.
codeemax | Dec 22, 2007 | Reply
Oh, yes.
It seems this blog could use an editor. Maybe 300 words or less. Maybe make certain the blog stays on-course.
Strangelywarmed | Dec 22, 2007 | Reply
Jesus wouldn’t be a Democrat or a Republican.
Jesus would acknowledge the Constitution of the United States and respect the offices of that govern this constitution in as much as these offices are accountable to the constitution.
Canopus | Dec 23, 2007 | Reply
The United States the “last best hope” of preserving Christianity? I must respectfully disagree with that statement. Look at how many Christians are in Latin America and Africa. And that’s not just Catholics, not that anything’s wrong with that. Evangelicals are making larege numbers of converts in Latin America and Asia. I think something like five of the ten largest megachurches in the world are in South Korea.
Bob Morwell | Dec 23, 2007 | Reply
There are also an estimated 150 million Christians in China, where being a Christian takes considerably more courage and commitment than most American Christians demonstrate.
We really need to get past this narcissistic and messianic notion of America as the center of the world…especially the spiritual center.
We certainly have our role to play, and it is a major one, but calling America the last best hope of preserving Christianity, overstates America’s faith and ignores literally billions of Christian elsewhere who witness to their faith in ways that require courage and character.
churchmedic | Dec 23, 2007 | Reply
short sweet version of my post above:
We can be a Democrat, Republican, Communist - a member of … well you get the idea… since we live in a democracy - we have the freedom of choice …
Jesus - did not come proclaiming democracy however - he came to proclaim a Kingdom !
In a democracy - everyone can decide… in a Kingdom there is but one ruler ! We have a choice in a democracy - but in a Kingdom - there is none !
I wish the church of today could realize this difference - We are Worshiping a LORD - a KING - the KING of Kings and LORD of Lords:
- Pastor Glenn - www.UnboxedChurch.com
Unboxing the Image of God in … You
dan_williams | Dec 24, 2007 | Reply
Canopus - Excellent point. An example comes to mind that bears out the failure of the United States of America to be Christianity’s ‘last, best hope’ for preservation. A recent episode of the news magazine show 60 Minutes exposed the persecution of Iraqi Christians since the American invasion of Iraq. Christians in Iraq have been forced to worship ‘underground’ for fear of being tortured or killed for their beliefs. Under the previous regime of Saadam Hussein they were protected and largely enjoyed freedom of religion (I certainly don’t hold Hussein up as the great protector of Christians). Now after occupation and creation of a new Democratic government they experience less (or no) religious freedom. How is it possible in our “Christian” country that we not only allow this to happen, but are unaware of this injustice until it is pointed out by the news media (years after it’s impact has begun to be felt). What is being done about it? The Iraqi government has made concessions since the report aired, but there is surely a long way to go.
You can view the original report by clicking this link or cutting an pasting it into your browser:
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3556304n
harleydds | Dec 24, 2007 | Reply
Bob,
We have our role to play–But? The old liberal” but”. The liberals have not been able, so far, to get beyond their hatred for W, which is just an extension of their hatred for this country, which always boggles my mind. Why are Volvo’s and Europe sooo great? Last I knew the French have elected a Conservative and he spoke before our Congress saying how great we are. (Didn’t get much coverage in the drive by media)–OOps now you know where I’m coming from.
Oh, check the demographics. Billions of Christians–I don’t think so. Moslems? Yes. Of course, you are aware of your three choices as an infidel ? If not, let me remind you. You can convert, become a slave, or they’ll just kill you. I say again, the USA is the last best hope of freedom and Christianity and if that is narcissistic– fine, we could use a little less self-loathing and more narcissism as Americans.
harleydds
Churchmedic,
No choice in the Kingdom? UMM MM I’ll have to think about that. Umm–made in God’s image ? No, He gave us free will and that’s why we are in rebellion against God–you know– original sin? When we’re out of choices we’re no longer human–maybe we should look forward to that but I can’t conceptualize it—-but He’s not through with me yet.
harley dds
Canopus,
Sadam was a bad guy butttttt?There’s that old liberal but again)
Mega churches in South Korea? Why is South Korea free? We’re working on things in Iraq and we have a way to go if the Christians are to be free like here, but we still have a bunch of troops in South Korea. If the US lays down it’s responsibility around the globe–not to dominate, not to tell peoples what to do, but to provide the opportunity for freedom, then the Christians will be fed to the lions again, don’t kid yourself.
harleydds
harleydds
codeemax | Dec 25, 2007 | Reply
Lonestar,
I can assure you, Adam’s intent is not to tell you what your politics should be. I am looking forward to his series of sermons— starting next weekend—through which I believe he intends to help us sort all of this out.
Isn’t it interesting how the rabid responses are pouring out and many are just nonsense? That’s why I said these questions are ‘nonsense’ questions.
I’ll wait for Adam to help sort this out. I don’t think he’s getting any responses to this blog that he didn’t anticipate, but mixing Christianity and politics or using one’s “religious” beliefs as a smokescreen for ANY political agenda is theocracy in some form or another.
Lonestar, keep the faith. If you are a searchinng believer and have an open mind, you will be challenged and rewarded at COR.
To the editor: thanks for removing the 3000 word blog.
To those of you with personal agendas: please don’t invite me to your web pages. There are a lot of smart—no, brilliant Christians at COR—very capable of intelligent and kind discussions. I hope we will all be enlightened by this endeavor.
Bob Morwell | Dec 25, 2007 | Reply
harley…
Instead of dealing in stereotypes and snap judgments (Eww-you must be a liberal who hates America!) check your facts. There ARE more Christians than Muslims in the world.
In your rush to dismiss my argument, you not only got that wrong, you also cast me as some kind of America hater because I don’t think that the fate of Christianity rests in the hands of any one nation. I think such a notion is narcissistic.
I am proud and grateful to be an American and if you knew diddly about me you would know that your accusations are beyond ridiculous.
I worship a God who is infinitely greater than America, or any other nation, and is not dependent upon our good will to save the world.
As that pinko Abe Lincoln once said, “My concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.”
And, by the way, the choices you list are not the only ones available in every Muslim country. Have you ever been to any yourself? I have. Once again, your facts are wrong, though I suspect that pointing this out will only lead you to charge that I am some sort of Muslim apologist. It’s much easier to do than checking your opinions against the facts.
I’ve met Christians in predominantly Muslim nations who weren’t persecuted, enslaved or killed until the wave of Islamic fundamentalism began to wash over them.
Are a great many Muslim nations repressive and intolerant? Absolutely! I recently sent a furious letter to the Saudi embassy over that grotesque judgment against the woman who had been gang raped. Before you pooh-pooh that, I would ask what you did about the case? Apparently world opinion (including mine) caused the king to overrule the judgment.
But I have actually worked with Muslims who have been kind, caring and charitable, so I won’t tar them all, simply because stereotyping is so easy.
lonestar | Dec 25, 2007 | Reply
codeemax -
Thank you for your comments. We haven’t given up this early on COR, but we ARE cautiously watching what is happening. We still do not feel politics should be brought into the church in any discussion. One of the things which really attracted us to COR was the neutrality the pastors seemed to have with respect to things left and right. However, since joining COR we have had occasion to participate in a discussion with one pastor her extreme and overtly expressed far left political position as well as indicating that “we at COR don’t take the Bible literally.” Huh? (My mental picture of a middle of the road church was shattered.)
The upcoming series will be interesting, particularly how morality is addressed in this time of increasing disintegration. We blame much of that disintegration on the church in general - where is the church when moral values are disappearing, especially when girls come to service half dressed? Where is the church when abortions are being performed - where is the outcry from the church? What position is the church taking regarding sanctuary for illegal immigrants? How will Adam treat the war - will he support or blame the administration - or will he be neutral? One way or the other it could be a very touchy thing for a religious person to do. You cannot be gray on things regarding abortion or illegal immigration - often the former is a thing of convenience while the latter is purely against the law.
It will be an interesting series, one which hopefully will present thought provoking facts on both sides for the congregation to decide. I’m afraid to do otherwise will only alienate some.
codeemax | Dec 25, 2007 | Reply
lonestar,
In some sermons a couple of years agoa, Adam (teaching from the Bible and Methodist theology, I believe) made a real effort to stand in the middle and not at either extreme, but—I don’t believe he would ever go so far as to say someone who doesn’t agree on issues, including those you mention—are not Christians.
Standing in the middle is the hardest. Flying to the extremes is not difficult, but can be damning (for others and ? for the flyers as well?)
Our small group is composed of loving and bright Christians and we do not agree on many things, but we are a covenant family and we are all sons and daughters of God and brothers and sisters of Christ and we learn from each other.
By the way, ‘taking the Bible literally’ or not depends on the meaning of ‘literally’ and ‘taking’. I haven’t met anyone in the COR pastorate (yet) who does not believe that all scripture is from God. Now, what that means as far as what should be taken literally or not—or what is directly applicable to us through exposition of that particular scripture—may be open to discussion. But that discussion should not cause us to disagree so vehemently that we end up “at one end or the other”.
Kathy Detweiler | Dec 25, 2007 | Reply
I am grateful that in this time of such polarizing issues that we can look for guidance from our Pastor. Not someone to tell us how to vote or what to think but to guide us, to make us look deeply at our own preconceived ideas of what is black or white. I am really looking forward to this series.
John | Dec 25, 2007 | Reply
I’m more inclined to think that Jesus would more likely be a libertarian. Notice that although he advocates various moral stances, like giving to the poor and marital fidelity, at no point does he advocate the use of government force in order to achieve these ends.
Ching | Dec 26, 2007 | Reply
Hello, all! I believe that Jesus would be an independent! He certainly was in his day and age. He did not conform to the set rules and religious thinking of the time. He did not conform to the Pharisees or Sadducees. In some issues, He sides with the government & against the popular opinion from the people (ex. paying Caesar what is due Caesar, submitting to authority). In some issues, He sides with the people (ex. the Sabbath was made for the poeple, not the people for the Sabbath). He had only one agenda - God’s agenda. If it was God’s will or purpose, He was for it, whether that pleased one crowd and not the other. Of course, I think it was easier for him to discern what is God’s will as He IS God….but I think we can do okay if we keep referring back to the Bible and his trusted teachings. Sure, the Bible does not come right out and tell you if, say, cloning and embronic research is ok but we are guided by the Holy Spirit. If we keep ouselves well-informed about issues (both sides) and well grounded in scripture, we will be lead to the right decisions. This is why I love COR so much - indeed we are not expected to check our brains at the door. We are expected to THINK in church and to evaluate our stance and ask why do we believe and how can we back it up. This, I think, makes us a better Christian. Having grown up athesist, I believe that the unchurched see this unwillingness to think and evaluate what we believe to be a very weak point. Thank you for this very interesting blog! Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas!
codeemax | Dec 26, 2007 | Reply
By the way Lonestar, if I may suggest: read Your God is Too Small by J B Phillips. You can read it in three or four hours. This book changed my theology from a strict legalist to something better, I think. He was a contemporary and friend of C S Lewis and he has an interesting translation of the New Testament of his own that has been around for sixty or so years.
Best,
Codeemax
harleydds | Dec 27, 2007 | Reply
Bob,
You do drive a Volvo don’t you. ?
The fact is there are more practicing Muslims than Christians in the world and it is the fastest growing religion. I don’t trust any of them. To my knowledge there is no great ( or small) outcry from the “moderates” regarding the unfathomable atrocities of the jihadists. By the way, the atrocities in Sudan are ALL the Muslims doing.
I never said America was greater than God. You know that God has used people and peoples as instruments of His will all through human history. From Abraham to Moses and Joshua , David, Paul, and maybe even you and me. We might be Republicans or Democrats—conservatives or liberals. I just think that in our time, starting with the founding fathers, He has a special mission for us. He has and will use Christians of all persuasions to advance His Kingdom here, led by the USA, until He comes Himself.
With all the bad news today(12/27/07), but with the hope of the Resurrection, I say as for me and my family and friends, I trust God and the United States Air Force.
Harley
Bob Morwell | Dec 27, 2007 | Reply
Nope. I drive a Ford and Saturn precisely because they are American made. (BTW, Volvo’s auto division is also owned by Ford, but I drive a Taurus.)
You really don’t have a clue about me do you?
If you refuse to recognize the fact that Christianity has more adherants in the world than Islam, then there really is no point in discussing this further because you continue to show a total unwillingness to face facts that don’t conform to your prejudices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
http://www.godweb.org/religionsofworld.htm
I respect the USAF, but I trust in God more, and I am confident that God has and will use the USA to do good in the world, but I am equally confident that God is not dependent upon us…quite the opposite.
As for me and my family, we will stick with the biblical text and serve the Lord.
And I have heard outcries against the jihadists. But they don’t get much air play. Especially on Fox.
Bob Morwell | Dec 27, 2007 | Reply
It strikes me that what harley has been doing…Trying to pin labels like “liberal” or America-hater, or even (horrors!) Volvo owner, on people who challenge his statements is precisely what is wrong with discourse on political issues today.
It is no longer a matter of “I belive I am right and I believe you are mistaken.”
It is now a matter of, “I am right an you are evil, or at least a witless dupe of evil forces.” It runs like a river through talk radio, whether the commentators are on the left or the right, which is why I don’t really trust any of them.
Harley seems to assume I think “Europe is so great.” Actually, I’ve been there about a dozen times and think the continent is spiritually adrift. I have done mission work in the former Soviet Bloc and have seen firsthand how misguided socialism can become.
BTW…I know something about religious freedom. I have been monitored by the secret police in two Soviet Bloc countires becuase of mission work I’ve done there; the old East Germany, and Belarus.
My friends in those countries would literally laugh at the insinuation that I am some kind of America-hater. A number of them spoke with envy about my obvious pride in my country. A pride they did not feel in their own.
Frankly, the name calling and glib attempts to label people are too cheap and lazy. We need something better.
There is a streak of self-righteousness in pretty much every political movement these days. And as I read the Gospels, it seems that Jesus saved his strongest attacks for those who were just sure they were right and good.
harleydds | Dec 28, 2007 | Reply
Bob,
(Adherents doesn’t equal practicing) and I never said I trust the USAF more than God, and I never said that God is dependent on the US. I said in essence that we are an instrument of the Lord.
This has been an enjoyable experience for me. I’m self employed and have never participated in this new thing called” Blogging” before . An old buddy of mine( a retired Methodist Minister and a flaming liberal) put me on to this site ,and I’m looking forward to the Gray series.
Just a couple clarifications on my positions. I am 63 years old and, naturally, have made a few decisions about what I believe in, and one should probably be able to do that by my age. Perhaps the most important of those beliefs is the question that Jesus asks us all:” Who do you say I am”?
I say He is the Christ!
From there we are free ( in the United States of America) to figure out how to serve Him. In the 80’s the Methodist Bishops (I am a lifelong Methodist) wrote an embarrassing and intellectually deficient paper called something like :In defense of Creation” This was to be read in all the pulpits in the country. Even my old Liberal friend didn’t do it, but shared it with me. This was a treatise on why the Reagan Administration was a threat to humanity and specifically why we should not have deployed missiles in Europe. There was a guy(Reagan) who was a little older than I at the time and had decided how he felt about a few things, and the country put him in a position to act on those beliefs even in the face of opposition such as that of the Methodist Bishops.
You would agree, I think, that it is easier now for Christians in the FORMER Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc although the Bishops, in some convoluted thinking, probably take credit for the changes in Eastern Europe.
We hosted a Neurologist from Moldova for a year here on a RWJ Fellowship. We had many conversations about his family and life under communism before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union as his english improved. I remember clearly his assertion that if the USA were to abandon the forces of Freedom in his area of the world , the Moldovans would be once again be enslaved by totalitarianism. I think he was one of those who called us the last best hope for freedom.
I guess Reagan was a name caller when he called the Soviets” an evil empire”( the huge Liberal Gasp heard round the world). Of course the Libs were ready to go to WWIII when they shot down the Korean Airliner.
. I’ll regard myself in good company when I point to things I think are evil. The Bishops probably disagree. The beat goes on!
harley
Euripides | Dec 30, 2007 | Reply
Republican or Democrat??? Neither! How could he belong to a political party or be involved in such a mess? Politicians tend to bend with the wind. If taking a stand on homosexuality will get them elected, they jump on the bandwagon. If rhetoric on illegal immigration will bring in the votes, they charge in that direction. How could the Son of God be involved in such a mess? Would he give in to our system of earmarks (Pork) or resist as he did when tempted by Satan?
He was a light in the darkness that could not be overcome by that darkenss. He would be as he was–One who spoke the truth about hypocrisy and self righteous behavior in the politicians and religious leaders of his day, without regard to the politics of that individual. In turn he would be called liberal by some and conservative by others, but in truth he would be neither.
thekid | Jan 6, 2008 | Reply
What is a Republican? For 20 plus years I worked hard and prayed hard with others to elect “principled” Republicans to the House, Senate and Presidency, and we did it!
Then, Republicans (with Democratic acquiescence) dragged us into an un-Constitutional war, gave away American blue collar and white collar jobs in name of free trade, doubled the federal deficit, increased the size and scope of government, advocated a Palestian homeland, took away civil liberties in the name of security, reduced free speech and called it campaign finance reform, and failed to significantly reduce the number of abortions performed. All this contrary to the Republican platform and to most Republican’s campaign promises. The Democrats most likely would have done the same by design or default.
So who do we trust? Trust in Jesus!
ty7777 | Jan 7, 2008 | Reply
Agreeing with Euripides and others being a rebublican and a Democrat seems to be a needless stereotype to me. It only influences voters who vote for the most popular candidate of their choice making their choice while waiting in line to vote. To someone who is perfect and bigger than transparent stereotypes the need to be judged by black or white is useless and will only lose votes for the perfect candidate, no he would be able to stay gray and be the one who can get both Democratic and Republican voter’s attention.
nattybumppo1 | Jan 9, 2008 | Reply
I’ll actually write some uneducated guesses of what Jesus would support even though his interest in government would be low.
1. Immigration- there is evidence that Jesus would welcome the poor, and their nationality would mean nothing to him.
2. Education- Jesus would support religious education, so he would want tax money to go to private schools. I’m a public school teacher so this doesn’t thrill me.
3. I think Jesus would support getting rid of the exemption of churches from taxation. This would be part of his driving the charatans out.
4. Though I have no clue how Jesus would feel about Iraq, I cannot see my Lord fighting there.
katie | Jan 9, 2008 | Reply
Jesus would be Independent. A liberal Independent. He would be what some people call a hippy. I believe if he was a citizen of the united states he wouldn’t put pressure on political party’s and just live by the ten comandments and emphasize LOVE THY NEIGHBOR. He wouldn’t be one that takes any stance on a political issue.
campbell | Jan 10, 2008 | Reply
I agree with many of the previous posts. Jesus would probably be somewhere in the middle - in the independent gray. I think he would support efforts to bring the parties together and all work for the common goal of doing what’s right. I do feel that Jesus would take a stance on certain issues because it is important to have strong beliefs.
In the end, though, it’s not about party affiliation. It’s about doing the right thing, and whether there is a Democrat or Republican in office next term, we can all do what’s right in our own households and communities. That’s what Jesus would want us to do.
Believer | Jan 11, 2008 | Reply
I consider COR to be my church although I live in Texas. I am spiritually inspired by the sermons and my heart is touched by the people of this church and all your good works. I applaud the courage and strong leadership of Pastor Adam to take on controversial issues and provide a voice of reason and spiritual guidance.
Politicians have taken our religion and used it for their gain. Too many of them have claimed their belief in God only to gain votes. Yet their actions prove otherwise. TV and Radio personalities work hard to inflame their listeners. Their message is often one of hatred. They do their job well. It is not enough that we vote for ‘their candidate’; it is not enough to hate the opposition; you must hate everyone who supports the opposition.
Jesus? I believe he would want us to love one another. I believe he would want us to stand strong together as the body of Christ. I believe he would want us to rise above the pettiness of politics and look for candidates who would do the right thing, regardless of party affiliation. There are people on both sides that are concerned with justice, with the poor and oppressed. As a Christian, I believe I should involve myself in determining which candidate would be best and support them. And if others disagree with me, I can respect their choice.
COR, you can be proud that you are a thinking church!! God Bless!
DMWs dad | Jan 11, 2008 | Reply
Neither. Jesus would be an Independent. He would approach politics as He did everything, seeking to find the best solution to our problems. Republicans and Democrats do not have a monopoly on best solutions.
DMWs dad | Jan 11, 2008 | Reply
My favorite interpretation of the Lord’s Prayer, which I think has some applicability to politics, includes the phrase “forgive us our trespasses to the degree we forgive those who trespass against us”. Once you forgive someone, how can you still feel about them the same way that you did before you forgave him or her?
DMWs dad | Jan 11, 2008 | Reply
Another story in the Bible, which reminds me of today’s politicians, is the one about the pharisee and the sinner. The pharisee said, thank you for making me so wonderful, or words to that effect. The sinner said something like, “forgive me for I am a sinner”. Most politicians seem to me to be more like the pharisee.
DMWs dad | Jan 11, 2008 | Reply
Back to the original question. Unfortunately, we will never know. It would be interesting, though, if a politician would ask “what would Jesus do?” before making a speech, making a promise, or taking a contribution. Instead, politicians seem like whited sepulchers.
DMWs dad | Jan 11, 2008 | Reply
I keep coming back to this topic. It is compelling to think about it as we caucus and vote. Don’t we receive what we deserve when we support individuals for public office who do not live up to what Jesus would have us do.
DMWs dad | Jan 11, 2008 | Reply
This is my last entry. I promise.
If he had to choose, I think Jesus would be a Democrat. He would be more interested in feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, healing the sick, and forgiving the woman who had an abortion than in castigating her for having an abortion.
codeemax | Jan 12, 2008 | Reply
DMWs dad,
This is off subject, but is worth a comment.
I’m not sure your interpretation of ‘forgive us our sins as . . . ‘ is correct. Your interpretation is legalistic.
I’m wondering if it means something like this:
‘Because I am forgiven, I forgive’
Like ‘Because I am loved, I love.’
In otherwords, this part of the prayer must be interpreted in the context of everything else we do—that we CAN’T EARN God’s forgiveness—your interpretation says we MUST earn it and if that is so, we are all in trouble.
Every time Adam has asked for suggestions for a sermon series, I’ve asked for one on ‘The Lord’s Prayer’. I think there’s a lot more to it than we give it credit for. I’ve been working on it, trying not to just ‘recite’ it… but think about what Jesus meant…the pattern of prayer, what he said in context to the question, “Teach us to pray.”—’like you do’, they meant.
I hope Adam will take us through it sometime.
And ummmm:
Jesus a Republican or a Democrat? That’s nonsense, as I said in my first blog. It’s silly to say one or the other.
I’ll suggest again the book by JB Phillips, Your God is Too Small. You can’t put God in a political (or any other kind of) box.
Stearman | Jan 12, 2008 | Reply
Would Jesus be a Republican or Democrat seems in the same concept as What Would Jesus Do. To answer is to intimate one understands Diety, which is presumptuous. We do not have the ability to understand God.Each of us is conditioned by all that has gone into who and what we are - a one-of-a-kind entity who has a God initiated relationship with God. We can relate to God, but because we can relate to Him, that gives us no franchise to speak as if we were God.Any speculation would therefore be more the extrapolation of our minds than God’s.
In a long ago course in Christian Ethics, it boiled down to “What I OUGHT to do.” Each of us is responsible for what has been revealed to us. As an illustration, in a big organization, to speculate that you know what the CEO would do in a certain situation, unless he had told you specifically, can not be tolerated.
Years ago on a tour of Europe whe had shushed our 5 year old son in many churches and palaces. One day, we were in Neu Schwanstein, “The Fairy Castle” in Bavaria.It was all beautiful beyond describing. The we went into the music room which was even more astoundingly gorgeous. I felt a tug on my trousers and leaned down, and in the little voice of a completely awed child, he whispered,”Is God HERE.” I try to understand, but am purely depending on mercy -
Dannar | Jan 13, 2008 | Reply
Great point about Christ’s torture … I never thought of that.
Dannar | Jan 13, 2008 | Reply
Stearman,
Sorry, I didn’t post you name. So…Great point about Christ being tortured for supposed crimes.
Believer,
Welcome to the church! I live 15 miles away, and I thought that was a long way! I agree…it is Adam’s responsibility as a pastor to keep us informed. As far as I know he has never demanded that we do or say anything. He respects our intelligence and faith as Christians’ enough to let us decide how we believe.
Dannar | Jan 13, 2008 | Reply
Canopus,
I agree that we all need to remember to take part in our government, so that the People, hopefully, will not make the same mistakes that the “unelect” few did then.
However, I do not think Assyrians can really be compared with NAZIs. Perhaps the atrocities they perpetrated were as bad, but they were living in a much more brutal world. Wheras the NAZI’s lived in a part of the world where Christ’s message had been prevalent for many centuries. Much of the best scholarship on Christianity was done by Germans. Most of the Nazis had probably attended Christian services!
To me, the Holocaust was and is the most frightening reminder to Christians in modern, if not all, history. Ever since I was a child watching Sound of Music, or more recently Schindler’s list, I have asked myself the question: Would I have stood up against the masses? With all my heart I want to say “yes!” I could never forgive myself if I didn’t, but … history speaks louder than my conscious. I think “yes,” but I pray to God I never have to make such a decision.
Dannar | Jan 13, 2008 | Reply
My first day on a blog of any kind. Can you tell? Okay, I just want to add one last comment. To those who are fairly new to COR, remember Adam is not the church. He willingly accepts criticism, and I truly think he considers and evaluates statements he has made in light of feedback.
But what I really wanted to add is that we should remember we are all brothers. To me, this means loving the person first. If you love them, you’ll begin to understand them. And, I think, if we understand them we can empathize even when their views are diametrically opposite. Paul, James, Mark and Peter had points of strong disagreement, but in the end they loved each other and Our Savior enough that they sometimes swallowed their pride.
I say this because I have been a part of two churches split by differences and pride. One of these churches I had attended as a child. It was there I first heard of Christ. It was over 100 years old. In disagreements taking place over two years, it was permanantley split apart. People who were friends became enemies. There were empty spaces where voices joining in harmony once sang,now with half the volume in separate buildings miles apart…
For me, it was sad. For regualar members, it was devastating. As for my answer to the question posed? Singing together solves more problems than bickering…in my opinion:-)
ericthered | Jan 14, 2008 | Reply
I concur with John. Jesus would not align himself with any political party– but his “politics” would be completely consistent with Libertarian political philosophy.
For a book-length treatment of this, I would encourage you to check out my book, Turn Neither to the Right nor to the Left: A Thinking Christian’s Guide to Politics and Public Policy.